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*** onnadi3 [i=82cf935f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/] has joined #eclipse-soc
*** Topic is: SOC 2007 @ Eclipse is on! - Get help with ~help - List of accepted applications:  - Find information here: - Be patient and stick around for an answer - Subscribe to the mailinglist
*** Topic set by pombreda [Sun Apr 15 18:10:57 2007]
*** onnadi3 faern arhan pombred1 benny`patchslut rcjsuen kynes soulreaper lemmy Pookzilla zx KOS-MOS ijuma
*** Channel created on Sun Nov 26 00:42:43 2006
<onnadi3> rcjsuen, lemmy: sorry, people. I'd been waiting in #eclipse_soc ...
<rcjsuen> onnadi3: oh, sorry I was not clear
<lemmy> Hi Ogehi
<lemmy> +c
<onnadi3> Hello, Markus
<onnadi3> rcjsuen: nah, its my fault. I've been here before :-)
<onnadi3> What's been happening in SoC, today?
<lemmy> do we have a log?
<onnadi3> Ach, I'm using a web client that doesn't support logging...
<onnadi3> Can you log?
<lemmy> yep, i'll log our conversations.
<onnadi3> Good. Thanks
<onnadi3> rcjsuen, lemmy: Shall we get down to business?
<lemmy> later i'll try to setup logging which redirects to html.
<lemmy> onnadi3: sure :)
<rcjsuen> Yes, I'm here.
<onnadi3> Excellent!
<lemmy> remy: you got my email with the proposed agenda?
<onnadi3> Yup.
<rcjsuen> lemmy: yeah
<onnadi3> Quick question before we start: does Eclipse have a "find in files" function?
<rcjsuen> in my INBOX
<rcjsuen> too
<lemmy> ok, wasn't sure if it got caught in the spam filter again. %)
<rcjsuen> onnadi3: if you use the search it'll search all open projects, dunno about specifying specific files
<rcjsuen> lemmy: wel-, i am sure everyone is busy (except me), let's get started?
<onnadi3> rcjsuen: alrighty. Thanks
<onnadi3> Sure, let's start
<lemmy> do we consider the channel log our meetings minutes?
<onnadi3> Sounds fine
<rcjsuen> fine by me
<lemmy> has either of you anything to add to the agenda?
<onnadi3> Nope
<rcjsuen> seems ok
<rcjsuen> if something comes up i will say something
<lemmy> ok, so lets get started with "project documentation".
<lemmy> i guess the wiki is a good place to keep general text.
<lemmy> but what about diagrams and such, do we wanna use UML? do we need it?
<lemmy> Ogechi: are you familiar with UML?
<rcjsuen> I've never used UML outside of school, so I am fine if we don't use it
<rcjsuen> and that was for term
<onnadi3> lemmy: I know of it but haven't used it. It'll be useful if we get're building a boatload of classes
<onnadi3> lemmy: I think we should start with prose first and get into UML as the need arises
<lemmy> fine with me, lets try to limit the new things in this project.
<lemmy> s/things/technology
<rcjsuen> lemmy: agreed
<onnadi3> agreed
<lemmy> so for the project we will work with written text.
<onnadi3> For documentation, we'll basically need inline comments, and perhaps a "how to hack" document, right?
<onnadi3> lemmy: yup
<rcjsuen> yes, the atter is extremey important
<rcjsuen> there goes my keys again
<lemmy> what do you guys understand under a "how to hack"?
<rcjsuen> for there to be users, you need to have a good howto guide
<rcjsuen> because we are a-- -azy and woud rather not try to figure out how to use a too-
<onnadi3> "how-to-hack: A doc describing how a program was built to aid other developers in modifying it later"
<onnadi3> rcjsuen: been typing too long? ;-)
<rcjsuen> onnadi3: maybe, dunno, oh wel-
<lemmy> to me this sound a little bit too generic. i'd like to narrow it down, so we all expect the same from it.
<lemmy> i guess this tool isn't targetted on end users, hence an isv might be appropriate.
<rcjsuen> true
<onnadi3> what is an ISV?
<rcjsuen> embedded in ec-ipse -ike what p-atform does?
<rcjsuen> something software vendor i think it is
<rcjsuen> independent maybe
<onnadi3> For the "how to hack"  what I had in mind was something like the documentation for TeX: sthg. that describes data structures used and mnotivation for it. Is this still, too generic
<onnadi3> not in WEB, of course
<lemmy> maybe we should divide it. we need documentation for people working with the code base and also for people using the codebase.
<lemmy> for the latter the typical eclipse documentation for extensionpoints... would probably be the best. for the former i would choose uml. ;p
<onnadi3> lemmy: by, people using the codebase, do you mean end-users?
<lemmy> onnadi3: yep
<lemmy> but i suppose such end-users would be developer too.
<lemmy> +s
<onnadi3> Yeah, so the "how to hack" will be targetted to developers, and the end-user docs can ba called the user manual
<lemmy> makes sense to me
<onnadi3> (good point about needing separte docs)
<lemmy> anything to add in regards to doc?
<rcjsuen> newp
<onnadi3> The user manual will have the usual stuff like "how to install", how to use, how to uninstall etc. while the dev-docs will just describe how to extend the plugin etc.
<lemmy> since the code will be bundled as plug-ins, we won't need a install/uninstall doc. this is descibed in the osgi/eclipse documentation.
<lemmy> onnadi3: is this your first eclipse plug-in you write?
<onnadi3> ahem...yeah
<onnadi3> :-)
<lemmy> no problem :)
<rcjsuen> no worries, a lot of ppl last year never wrote a plug-in
<lemmy> onnadi3: do you have eclipse open atm?
<onnadi3> I'm opening it right now
<lemmy> ok, i'll grab a new cup of coffee.
<rcjsuen> That means he hasnt gone over to the dark side yet.
<onnadi3> oh boy... :-)
<lemmy> with the dark side being?
<onnadi3> BTW, (while eclipse loads) are we going to hashout all the details of what will be in the docs, or just the general plan?
<rcjsuen> if you have eclipse open all the time even when you don't really need it
<onnadi3> (Eclipse is up!)
<lemmy> for me the general plan is enough atm.
<onnadi3> okey-dokey
<rcjsuen> as the project (and its scope) is defined (and refined), the details will hash themselves out I think
<lemmy> i just want to make sure, we agree on the same thing. :)
<onnadi3> rcjsuen: glad to see the fire of your Eclipse youth is not out ;)
<onnadi3> lemmy: alrighty
<lemmy> onnadi3: if you open the help system, the "JDT plug-in developer guide" might be a good example of what i think would be good end-user doc.
<lemmy> certainly not that big though
<onnadi3> Ah. I see and understand
<onnadi3> That's some pretty documentation
<rcjsuen> imo one of the first things that should be done in the documentation phase is properly bui-ding a source plug-in + embedded docs as above
<lemmy> btw. suppose we're all happy with the outcome of the project at the end of summer, could you imagine to continue working on the project?
<onnadi3> "source plugin"?
<rcjsuen> onnadi3: something that includes the java source code of the binary jar that you distribute
<rcjsuen> lemmy: yes good question
<onnadi3> Hell yeah, I'd continue. This is my first shot at real fame und fortune :)
<rcjsuen> onnadi3: many students from the previous year, if you wi-- move on as we--, that is not an issue
<lemmy> onnadi3: the question aims at the "internal" documentation. if you're still around to answer questions, we don't need a thoroughly doc.
<lemmy> though it is desirable.
<onnadi3> Very desirable. You never know when I might get run over by a bus
<lemmy> lets hope not at all. ;o
<onnadi3> So I think we're good for the user docs. For the dev docs, are y'all fine with something like the TeX docs?
<lemmy> you mean something written in tex? i must confess, i don't know the tex documentation.
<onnadi3> Oh no no. I mean, the documentation of TeX
<lemmy> s/must/have to
<onnadi3> You'll need a dvi previewer to view it
<onnadi3> Basically, I'm just thinking of documentation as detailed as that so that someone can easily understand the source
<rcjsuen> if you can go a-- out, that wou-d be great
<lemmy> i like detailed. ;)
<onnadi3> Deal
<onnadi3> So that'll be all the documentation we need for this project right? Are we ready to move on to the next poin in the agenda?
<lemmy> what i usually miss the most in terms of project documentation, is the big picture and the major design.
<rcjsuen> onnadi3: i think so
<lemmy> i don't need a class that contains more javadoc than code.
<lemmy> yep, enough for the documentation. ;)
<lemmy> s/for the/with
<lemmy> the next topic i'd like to see going into the project doc. ;)
<lemmy> "Define some terms/Narrow down or extend the scope"
<lemmy> i think we should try to come up with a clear understanding of what a service can and cannot be.
<lemmy> this will most certainly influence the scope of the project.
<lemmy> i could imagine using the wiki page (where i already created a section for it) ;)
<lemmy> what is a service? what identifies a service...
<lemmy> is the term service even approriate...
<rcjsuen> maybe not
<lemmy> the current use cases lead to something that i won't really call a service.
<onnadi3> Well, a service can be anything that can be identified with URI...but for this Summer, my goal was only to write finders for services on the local machine
<rcjsuen> lemmy: you want jdk autodetection, i don't think one woud really call a java runtime a esrvice
<rcjsuen> service is something i shou-d be ab-e to restart through /etc/init.d
<rcjsuen> and whatever that thing in Win32 is
<lemmy> rcjsuen: or via the osgi console ;)
<lemmy> maybe we should do the use cases before we define the term?
<onnadi3> lemmy: perhaps. May we start with some from the proposal?
<lemmy> sure :)
<rcjsuen> markus: good idea
<onnadi3> BTW, rcjsuen, do you have access to a copy of the proposal?
<lemmy> should this be our homework assignment to write down the use cases on the wiki page? we could even ask other people to add theirs.
<rcjsuen> markus: yes
<onnadi3> Well, one case is like lemmy said, JDK, or gcc, or PERL detection
<rcjsuen> lemmy: you need to change your name to start with a key that i dont -ose ha-fway
<onnadi3> :-)
<lemmy> rcjsuen: maybe you should get yourself a new keyboard instead. ;)
<rcjsuen> it sounds -ike we are detecting binaries
<rcjsuen> nuh-uh! :(
<onnadi3> Well, the logic for detecting binaries is exactly the same needed to find a Webserver on port 80
<onnadi3> (well, kinna the same)
<lemmy> onnadi3: lets collect use cases until the next meeting. then we choose some of them which make the most sense and compile the deliverables out of it?
<onnadi3> lemmy: Could you please point me to the page you created?
<lemmy> until then i think we should postpone the remaining technical agenda items.
<onnadi3> Alrighty! So, on to the organizational items, eh?
<lemmy> rcjsuen: btw. i'll ask phillipe to grant you mentor rights in
<lemmy> onnadi3: unless you have something technical to add. :)
<onnadi3> lemmy: BTW, thanks for putting that page up
<onnadi3> lemmy: nope, I'm ready to get orgnanized :)
<lemmy> nah, don't mention it. that's what i'm here for.
<lemmy> ok, "weekly status meetings".
<lemmy> however, normally i prefer daily standup meetings, but this seems to be a problem timezone-wise.
<lemmy> at least for me. you two live in the same tz.
<onnadi3> oh we do?
<onnadi3> rcjsuen: where are you?
<onnadi3> *where do you live?
<rcjsuen> onnadi3: canada
<onnadi3> excellent
<lemmy> onnadi3: and he's normally on irc 24/7 ;)
<onnadi3> hehehe
<onnadi3> I think we should have one weekly meeting, any weekday except Friday
<lemmy> for the moment i'd suggest to use this timeslot for our weekly meetings?!
<onnadi3> ahh...
<lemmy> is it too early=
<lemmy> ?
<rcjsuen> ten am is fine with me
<onnadi3> Could we push it back an hour or so. This waking up on a Saturday thing...  :-D
<rcjsuen> considering i wake up before seven sometimes
<rcjsuen> yes, i just said i wake up before seven sometimes
<onnadi3> Even in the summer??
<rcjsuen> yes
<rcjsuen> rather, even on the weekends
<onnadi3> <cringes> you're strong :)
<lemmy> maybe we can move it to sunday then?
<rcjsuen> sunday is sti-- a weekend ;p
<lemmy> the nightclubs in india close around 1:30
<onnadi3> hahahahahhaa
<lemmy> then i'm fine with 11:00am EST/8:30pm IST.
<onnadi3> Alright. Saturdays, 11am EST/8:30pm IST starting from May 28?
<lemmy> Sundays, 11am EST/8:30pm IST
<rcjsuen> we are actua--y EDT, but okay ;p
<rcjsuen> if we are fo--owing -ast yr-s schedu-e
<onnadi3> Hmm, could we move it back to Saturday? 11am is kinna smack in the middle of church time
<onnadi3> on Sundays, that is
<rcjsuen> probab-y a week-y soc meeting on thursdays
<onnadi3> rcjsuen: I second that
<lemmy> rcjsuen: which time?
<rcjsuen> lemmy: last year the whole group met on 1200 EDT and, er
<rcjsuen> twenty-one hundred?
<lemmy> yep
<rcjsuen> Two meetings are held every Thursday:
<rcjsuen>    1. 0900 PDT - 1200 EDT - 1600 UTC
<rcjsuen>    2. 1600 PDT - 1900 EDT - 2300 UTC
<rcjsuen> newp, nineteen hundred
<rcjsuen> we had two to compensate time zone things
<rcjsuen> (and commitments, of course, work/school/wahtever)
<rcjsuen> dunno what is philippe's plan this yr
<rcjsuen> hello my L key!
<rcjsuen> oh nm its dead again ;(
<onnadi3> aww
<onnadi3> The Ls were nice :)
<lemmy> I won't make 2300 utc for sure.
<lemmy> 1600 will be hard too, considering that the day starts early in india. but i guess i don't have an option.
<onnadi3> So, we'll be meeting on Thursdays and Saturdays, eh?
<lemmy> rcjsuen: how long do those meetings usually last?
* rcjsuen coughs.
<rcjsuen> er, we--
<rcjsuen> we have doub-e the students this round ;p
<rcjsuen> sometimes they go over an hr
<lemmy> onnadi3: for saturday 10:30am EDT/8:00pm IST as a compromise? ;o
<rcjsuen> anyway, this is un-ike-y to be set in stone
<rcjsuen> since pom wou-d want to get a fee- for what students agree on this yr
<onnadi3> lemmy: sure. (their clubs must be *really* good ;) )
<lemmy> onnadi3: it's better than being home alone. ;)
<rcjsuen> lemmy: i'm home alone all the time
<lemmy> rcjsuen: you're still young.
<onnadi3> hahahahha
* lemmy doesn't want to die alone. ;)
<lemmy> so, saturdays 10:30am EDT/8:00pm IST it is?
<rcjsuen> fine by me
<onnadi3> fine by me
<onnadi3> And this is starting from May 28?
<lemmy> i don't mind if you have your breakfast while typing. ;)
<lemmy> onnadi3: that depends on you. if it were for me, we could start right away.
<onnadi3> lemmy: I'd love to start too but I'll be out of town three out of the coming four Saturdays
<lemmy> just the saturdays or the whole week?
<onnadi3> Just the weekends
<onnadi3> So, I *could* work and send you updates by e-mail or whenever I catch you on IRC
<rcjsuen> either would work
<lemmy> rcjsuen: i suppose we won't start with the regular thursday meetings before the official gsoc beginning?
<rcjsuen> un-ike-y
<rcjsuen> the fact that not many ppl are here means something ;)
<onnadi3> Cool, so I guess that's meeting schedules done with
<onnadi3> Next up: deliverables?
<lemmy> lets postpone it. currently everything is too vague to actually write it down.
<rcjsuen> yes
<lemmy> also for the milestones/road map
<rcjsuen> yeep
<onnadi3> On the topic of project housing, does Eclipse still use CVS for legacy reasons?
<lemmy> offers svn as well as cvs.
<rcjsuen> cvs works so we stick with cvs i spose
<lemmy> onnadi3: you're familiar with svn?
<onnadi3> Yup...and I love it
<onnadi3> So, if we could use it instead of cvs... ;)
<lemmy> I'm fine with svn too. If it is technically possible, we should you is. But first we need to talk about the license you want to choose for the code.
<lemmy> this is important if we can or cannot use
<lemmy> onnadi3: do you have a license model in mind?
<rcjsuen> There is also the issue of 3rd party libs
<rcjsuen> to factor into the equation, if any
<onnadi3> um...I'm a big fan of "Do as you damned well please, just don't give it the same name as mine"
<lemmy> rcjsuen: maybe you like to elaborate on this topic?
<onnadi3> Is there a license for that?
<rcjsuen> we--, licenses ilke those would probably be compatible with the ep
<rcjsuen> epl
<rcjsuen> onnadi3: for these super-lax licenses, you probaby want to -ook at mit or bsd
<rcjsuen> and
<onnadi3> And those could still be added to the Eclipse source??
<lemmy> onnadi3: if we want to see the code included in eclipse someday, the easiest would be to choose epl.
<lemmy> but there is also the possibility of cross-licensing
<rcjsuen> they can be committed to cvs but afaik, no one _works_ on the code that is under a different license at
<rcjsuen> like we distribute ant with eclipse, but of course, ant development is done by Apache
<onnadi3> ah. Then I probably want EPL.
<rcjsuen> yes, dual-tri-multi-licensing schemes work too, as lemmy points out
<rcjsuen> last yr i dual-ed mine
<onnadi3> what licenses didja use?
<rcjsuen> but when it came time to throw it on eclipse, i just removed the dual references
<rcjsuen> i used MIT/X11 with EPL
<rcjsuen> but yes, the easiest way out is to pick epl
<lemmy> just keep in mind that epl and gpl are incompatible.
<lemmy> it won't be possible to use gpl 3rd party libraries.
<onnadi3> alrighty
<lemmy> for drools i've checked already and it's apache license.
<lemmy> just in case we'll use it.
<onnadi3> lemmy: what is in the apache license?
<onnadi3> (and where did you pick up "for drools"? ;) )
<onnadi3> Sorry, I  meant what were you referring to when  you said "I've checked"?
<lemmy> drools is a rules engine which might get useful.
<lemmy> maybe it's overkill though
<onnadi3> oh...ah...I thought you were using it as a turn of phrase :)
<lemmy> hehe, no.
<onnadi3> Alright, so I guess its sorted for now: Eclipse license...unless we really need a library with a different license
<lemmy> personally i think epl makes sense since i see this code going into eclipse at some point.
<rcjsuen> yes, I think some of the projects will find it handy
<onnadi3> here here
<lemmy> if we agree on epl, we should get the paperwork rolling. i'll probably take a couple of weeks to get it done.
<onnadi3> Paperwork?? What do we need to do?
<rcjsuen> lemmy: paperwork for
<rcjsuen> ?
<lemmy> new committer?
<rcjsuen> lemmy: well, i guess ask pombred1/wayne to get the ball rolling
<lemmy> rcjsuen: i don't think philippe plans to do it in a batch.
<rcjsuen> we--, i did not mean -iterally
<ijuma> conan is the person to ask about drools btw
<ijuma> he's in #eclipse
<rcjsuen> batch per se in a way cuz we need to hand in the names when we recreate soc component
<ijuma> (if there are questions that is)
<lemmy> ijuma: great, good to know somebody personally. :-)
<ijuma> it's Mark Proctor btw
<ijuma> the lead developer
<lemmy> perfect
<onnadi3> Does new committer have anythign to do with the license we choose?
<ijuma> lemmy: yeah, irc is cool :)
<lemmy> _if_ ogechi chooses to use a rule engine after all. ;)
<ijuma> well, irc is still cool anyway ;)
<lemmy> onnadi3: indirectly...
<rcjsuen> It has to do with
<rcjsuen> "DO NOT commit non-EPLed code"
<rcjsuen> :P
<lemmy> onnadi3: to get a developer account at, you need to go through this new committer process.
<onnadi3> Ah, I got  it
<lemmy> using infrastructre makes only sense if you choose epl as a license.
<onnadi3> lemmy: Don't I have to "prove my mettle" by at least writing some code first? That way it'll feel more special :)
<lemmy> onnadi3: "normally" it is like that. you need to gain "meritocracy points" to be elected as a committer.
<lemmy> but for soc it is different.
<lemmy> this bug might make things clearer
<lemmy> rcjsuen: correct me if i'm wrong, you know far more about this.
<onnadi3> It does clear things up
<lemmy> in #eclipse we have our first use case i suppose. ;)
<onnadi3> in that case, I guess we've covered all possible ground today
<lemmy> and it only took use 1,5h. ;)
<rcjsuen> har
<rcjsuen> but yes, the idea wou-d have been
<onnadi3> We should probably try to meet up again to clear up the biz about deliverables etc.
<rcjsuen> keep contributing till you drop
<rcjsuen> but since it is a "new project
<rcjsuen> new project has an initial set of committers
<rcjsuen> so you guys will all be a subset of that set
<rcjsuen> the other subset would be the mentors
<lemmy> to wrap things up a litte...
<lemmy> we'll have two different docs. end-user doc in the eclipse isv format and the internal doc like the tex doc
<lemmy> until next week we'll write down use cases in the wiki
<lemmy> the next irc status meeting will be on may 28
<lemmy> project will be licensed under epl
<rcjsuen> kk
<lemmy> regular status meetings will be on saturdays 10:30am EDT/8:00pm IST
<onnadi3> So, I guess the conversation will continue asynchronously over the wiki...on the issue of use cases
<lemmy> also we'll have general soc status meetings for which the final timing is still TBA
<rcjsuen> yes
<onnadi3> Sounds like a plan y'all
<lemmy> onnadi3: you can add the wiki page to your watchlist. that way you'll receive emails once somebody modifies the page.
<rcjsuen> wow that is friggin annoying
<lemmy> one last thing. onnadi3 do you have a blog?
<onnadi3> I don't have a blog
<onnadi3> I thought the wiki was meant for updates on the status of the project etc.?
<lemmy> idea is to create a blog for the three of us which we use to blog about the project. (eclipse has a vibrant blogging scene)
<onnadi3> Can't that be on the wiki page? It would fit nicely there
<lemmy> it don't think it is technically possible to add a wiki page to the planet.
<lemmy> also we'd not use it for technical discussion, much rather for PR instead.
<lemmy> +but
<lemmy> it's just an idea though. i don't wanna talk you into it.l
<onnadi3> I'll see about that. I would like to put up general thoughts about the state of the project and all
<lemmy> in general feel free to stop me/us if we rush things. :)
<rcjsuen> :)
<onnadi3> No problem. Things are sauntering by for now so I think I can handle it :)
<lemmy> if you don't feel comfortable with something, just raise you voice.
<onnadi3> NO PROBLEM
<onnadi3> ;)
<rcjsuen> He probably has a problem with my l key problem.
<rcjsuen> Why speak of the devil here it is back online
<rcjsuen> maybe for more than thirty seconds this time
<lemmy> i think this is the most important point of this meeting. we mentors are meant to support you. we're not your boss.
<onnadi3> That's good to know. Remy, Markus, thanks a lot for all your help
<onnadi3> BTW, Remy, are you a he or a she?
<onnadi3> (if you don't mind)
<rcjsuen> np, -ooking forward to working with you in the coming months/weeks
<lemmy> although we have a say in terms of payment. ;p
<rcjsuen> I am a male. You can even get my mug shot here
<lemmy> wait a sec, let me find the brain pic...
<rcjsuen> Markus and I go waaaaaaaaay IRC ;P
<lemmy> ah next time, it's stored on the usb drive.
<onnadi3> :-)
<onnadi3> Alright y'all...I think I shall mosey of now. I've got to please my current employer :) But I'll put up use cases as soon as I get em
<rcjsuen> onnadi3: np, see you around
<lemmy> have a nice day/weekend
<onnadi3> bye bye

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