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| Thursday [[August 11, 2016]] at [http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=Eclipse+AC+Montly+Meeting&iso=20160811T11&p1=188&ah=1 1100 Ottawa] <br>[[Image:Html.gif]][http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=g30r6idsq3rsufe2j3t6k0l0g4%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=Canada/Toronto HTML] &#124; [[Image:Ical.gif]][http://www.google.com/calendar/ical/g30r6idsq3rsufe2j3t6k0l0g4%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics iCal]
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| Thursday [[September 8, 2016]] at [http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=Eclipse+AC+Montly+Meeting&iso=20160908T11&p1=188&ah=1 1100 Ottawa] <br>[[Image:Html.gif]][http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=g30r6idsq3rsufe2j3t6k0l0g4%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=Canada/Toronto HTML] &#124; [[Image:Ical.gif]][http://www.google.com/calendar/ical/g30r6idsq3rsufe2j3t6k0l0g4%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics iCal]
 
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* Last meeting: [[Architecture Council/Meetings/August 11 2016]] -- open actions see [[#Action_Items]]
 
* Last meeting: [[Architecture Council/Meetings/August 11 2016]] -- open actions see [[#Action_Items]]
  
=== New Topics ===
+
=== Dani: UI Guidelines ===
 +
* Bring the UI Working Group to life again, promote the UI Guidelines (came up recently on IDE-Dev)
 +
** UI Working Group was very silent recently;
 +
** [[User Interface Guidelines]] are still 70% valid, except maybe Theming and trend to flat UI
 +
** Most Projects won't know the Guidelines at all
 +
*** Eike: Do we know about user complaints regarding UI inconsistencies ?
 +
** Architectural issue: Some people had to redefine commands, since they were not define at the right layer --
 +
*** Example: Some JDT commands had to be redefined in CDT
 +
** Martin: UI Guidelines talk about low-level details ... but user complaints are mostly about high-level: awkward workflows, complexity, over-loaded menus (eg 45 items in an editor context menu !)
 +
*** Hard to achieve in an Open Framework ... what do others think ?
 +
*** Exactly the same compmlaints from Science ... things feel clunky, unintuitive ... click count, click distance
 +
*** Martin: Extend the concepts of Theming and Capabilities, such that Product Builders have more control over workflows ?
 +
*** Jay: Exactly this is driving Design Thinking in Science ... moving away from the IDE and more towards RCPs ... desire to hide things, make workflows more natural, more web-like
 +
*** Eike: Tools like Thunderbird, MS Office, ... can customize the UI by dragging buttons etc, why isn't that possible in the Eclipse IDE ?
 +
*** Mickael: {{bug|477670}} is open for making toolbar customization easier by right-click: one piece in the puzzle, but maybe a step in the right direction ... a patch was submitted but was not good enough
 +
*** Doug: Turns off many toolbar items on every new workspace, would be nice saving this as a global config - Dani: would be nice
 +
** Martin: On a higher level - what to do with a UI Working Group, how to find resources for specific problem solutions, how to come up with an architecture to address the "big picture" problems
 +
*** Dani: Mike Milinkovich could hire a Designer for FEEP ... could consider looking over the current design and bring it up to date
 +
*** Doug: "Quality of the IDE" really needs to go into the culture of projects .. would like to see those kind of things reflected in the UI Guidelines
 +
*** Jay would be happy jumping in as a Chair of a "New UI Working Group"; Doug also interested in driving this
 +
**** Want this as a member group, or prefer industry leaders jump in ? Need to pick a path, to bootstrap it (via Bug ticket)
 +
**** Doug recommends starting as a committee on the AC (rather than an entire Working Group), start with phone calls, hangouts etc (that's also how the Science WG started out)
 +
**** '''AI Dani''' could send a note to the "old" UI mailing list, and ask Mike about funding for FEEP Design
 +
**** '''AI Doug''' to start with a note to the Mailing List, then schedule calls. Jay is OK since already driving one WG.
 +
 
 +
=== Jay: Web UI Strategies ===
 +
* Where is Eclipse in terms of Web UIs - time for a Strategy around Che, RAP, Scout - is Eclipse as a whole missing the boat in terms of going to the Web ?
 +
* There is pressure on Science projects going to the Web .. but without Guidance from the AC, projects are lost
 +
* How many users use Scout, RAP, ... in the RCP space ?
 +
** Any guidelines like ... if you use Virgo, look at React, if you have an RCP look at RAP ...
 +
** Projects '''are''' going to migrate, how could we help
 +
* Doug: There's so many web frameworks out there, why create another one ?
 +
* Martin: Having a hard time thinking about "the guideline that fits everyone" ... probably rather a blog by somebody who went through the process evaluating options and writing that down ?
 +
** '''AI Jay''' will put his thoughts on the Wiki as a start for discussion
 +
 
 +
=== Eike: F2F at EclipseCon ===
 +
* '''AI Eike''' ask '''AI Wayne''' if he could organize some something (Eike, Dani, Doug at least)
 +
 
 +
=== Dani: PC Call yesteray ===
 +
* Refer to David Williams's Notes
 +
* Platform make a very big N&N, much more than other projects; will look at small updates for "dot.[123]" updates
 +
* Talked about a new model for "Post Release / Starting New Train" - will keep existing projects to start and remove them later (note been sent on cross-platform)
 +
 
 +
=== Release vs. Product Naming ===
 +
* Naming of Releases and IDE Product (Wayne has {{bug|493490}} open on that)
 +
** Q: is there any value changing from "Eclipse IDE" to anything else ?
 +
** Maybe split the discussion into a couple separate bugs ?
 +
** Is there still a need brainstorming, or should there just be a vote (or dictator)?
 +
*** Wayne: Perhaps what's missing is simply a product manager (Ian did a survey shortly before Neon, some terms are already out there). There is value in us talking about things in a consistent way.
 +
*** Need a leader to come
 +
 
 +
=== Wayne: Simplifying the Release Process ===
 +
* {{bug|}} many projects move quickly; require projects do a proper review "once in a while" eg yearly, but allow them release much quicker
 +
 
  
 
<!--
 
<!--
Line 106: Line 159:
 
===All Attendees===
 
===All Attendees===
  
 +
* '''In attendance:''' Wayne Beaton, Jay Billings, Cedric Brun, Christian Campo, Mickael Istria, Alex Kurtakov, Marc-Andre Laperle, Dani Megert, Alexander Nyssen, Martin O, Doug Schaefer, Eike Stepper, Krum Tsvetkov
  
* '''Regrets:'''  
+
* '''Regrets:''' Jonas Helming, Martin Lippert, Adrian Mos, Denis Roy, Matthias Sohn, Gunnar Wagenknecht
 
+
* '''In attendance:''' Wayne Beaton, Jonas Helming, Dani Megert, Martin O, Doug Schaefer, Michael Scharf,
+
  
 
<!--
 
<!--

Revision as of 11:57, 8 September 2016

Meeting Title: Architecture Council Monthly Meeting
Date & Time: Thursday September 8, 2016 at 1100 Ottawa
Html.gifHTML | Ical.gifiCal
Dial-in: Let's use the Foundation's Asterisk setup for this call:
  • North America (toll free) 1-866-569-4992
  • Germany (local call anywhere in Germany) 49-692-2224-6059
  • France (local call anywhere in France) 33-17-070-8535
  • Switzerland (local call anywhere in Switzerland) +41-44-580-2115
  • Spain, Sweden, others - see Asterisk/Numbers

Participant conference extension: 701 then enter pin: 51968

  • SIP clients can call 701@asterisk.eclipse.org, then enter pin 51968.

Agenda / Notes

Dani: UI Guidelines

  • Bring the UI Working Group to life again, promote the UI Guidelines (came up recently on IDE-Dev)
    • UI Working Group was very silent recently;
    • User Interface Guidelines are still 70% valid, except maybe Theming and trend to flat UI
    • Most Projects won't know the Guidelines at all
      • Eike: Do we know about user complaints regarding UI inconsistencies ?
    • Architectural issue: Some people had to redefine commands, since they were not define at the right layer --
      • Example: Some JDT commands had to be redefined in CDT
    • Martin: UI Guidelines talk about low-level details ... but user complaints are mostly about high-level: awkward workflows, complexity, over-loaded menus (eg 45 items in an editor context menu !)
      • Hard to achieve in an Open Framework ... what do others think ?
      • Exactly the same compmlaints from Science ... things feel clunky, unintuitive ... click count, click distance
      • Martin: Extend the concepts of Theming and Capabilities, such that Product Builders have more control over workflows ?
      • Jay: Exactly this is driving Design Thinking in Science ... moving away from the IDE and more towards RCPs ... desire to hide things, make workflows more natural, more web-like
      • Eike: Tools like Thunderbird, MS Office, ... can customize the UI by dragging buttons etc, why isn't that possible in the Eclipse IDE ?
      • Mickael: bug 477670 is open for making toolbar customization easier by right-click: one piece in the puzzle, but maybe a step in the right direction ... a patch was submitted but was not good enough
      • Doug: Turns off many toolbar items on every new workspace, would be nice saving this as a global config - Dani: would be nice
    • Martin: On a higher level - what to do with a UI Working Group, how to find resources for specific problem solutions, how to come up with an architecture to address the "big picture" problems
      • Dani: Mike Milinkovich could hire a Designer for FEEP ... could consider looking over the current design and bring it up to date
      • Doug: "Quality of the IDE" really needs to go into the culture of projects .. would like to see those kind of things reflected in the UI Guidelines
      • Jay would be happy jumping in as a Chair of a "New UI Working Group"; Doug also interested in driving this
        • Want this as a member group, or prefer industry leaders jump in ? Need to pick a path, to bootstrap it (via Bug ticket)
        • Doug recommends starting as a committee on the AC (rather than an entire Working Group), start with phone calls, hangouts etc (that's also how the Science WG started out)
        • AI Dani could send a note to the "old" UI mailing list, and ask Mike about funding for FEEP Design
        • AI Doug to start with a note to the Mailing List, then schedule calls. Jay is OK since already driving one WG.

Jay: Web UI Strategies

  • Where is Eclipse in terms of Web UIs - time for a Strategy around Che, RAP, Scout - is Eclipse as a whole missing the boat in terms of going to the Web ?
  • There is pressure on Science projects going to the Web .. but without Guidance from the AC, projects are lost
  • How many users use Scout, RAP, ... in the RCP space ?
    • Any guidelines like ... if you use Virgo, look at React, if you have an RCP look at RAP ...
    • Projects are going to migrate, how could we help
  • Doug: There's so many web frameworks out there, why create another one ?
  • Martin: Having a hard time thinking about "the guideline that fits everyone" ... probably rather a blog by somebody who went through the process evaluating options and writing that down ?
    • AI Jay will put his thoughts on the Wiki as a start for discussion

Eike: F2F at EclipseCon

  • AI Eike ask AI Wayne if he could organize some something (Eike, Dani, Doug at least)

Dani: PC Call yesteray

  • Refer to David Williams's Notes
  • Platform make a very big N&N, much more than other projects; will look at small updates for "dot.[123]" updates
  • Talked about a new model for "Post Release / Starting New Train" - will keep existing projects to start and remove them later (note been sent on cross-platform)

Release vs. Product Naming

  • Naming of Releases and IDE Product (Wayne has bug 493490 open on that)
    • Q: is there any value changing from "Eclipse IDE" to anything else ?
    • Maybe split the discussion into a couple separate bugs ?
    • Is there still a need brainstorming, or should there just be a vote (or dictator)?
      • Wayne: Perhaps what's missing is simply a product manager (Ian did a survey shortly before Neon, some terms are already out there). There is value in us talking about things in a consistent way.
      • Need a leader to come

Wayne: Simplifying the Release Process

  • bug many projects move quickly; require projects do a proper review "once in a while" eg yearly, but allow them release much quicker


Attendees

All AC Members are invited.

  • PMC Reps please confirm attendance or list your delegate below. Every PMC is required to name a primary and backup delegate, and to ensure that one delegate attends the meeting.
BIRT: Wenfeng Li Wenbin He
DTP: Brian Payton Linda Chan
Eclipse: Dani Megert Mike Wilson
Modeling: Ed Merks Cédric Brun
Eike Stepper
Mylyn: Steffen Pingel Mik Kersten
RT: Christian Campo Tom Watson
Doug Clarke
Ian Bull
SOA: Adrian Mos Marc Dutoo
Technology: Gunnar Wagenknecht Wayne Beaton
Tools: Doug Schaefer
WTP: Chuck Bridgham Neil Hauge
LocationTech: Jim Hughes
IoT: Julien Vermillard

All Attendees

  • In attendance: Wayne Beaton, Jay Billings, Cedric Brun, Christian Campo, Mickael Istria, Alex Kurtakov, Marc-Andre Laperle, Dani Megert, Alexander Nyssen, Martin O, Doug Schaefer, Eike Stepper, Krum Tsvetkov
  • Regrets: Jonas Helming, Martin Lippert, Adrian Mos, Denis Roy, Matthias Sohn, Gunnar Wagenknecht


Next Meeting

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