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Difference between revisions of "DSDP/DD/Face-to-face Toronto 22-Feb-2006"

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== Presentations ==
 
== Presentations ==
 +
* [http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/download.php?file=/dsdp/dd/2006-2-22_Toronto_DD_PDA_Prototype.ppt Pawel P - PDA Prototype]
 +
* [http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/download.php?file=/dsdp/dd/2006-2-22_Toronto_DD_CDT_FlexHierarchyUpdate.ppt Mikhail K - CDT Flexible Hiearchy Update]
 +
* [http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/download.php?file=/dsdp/dd/2006-2-22_Toronto_DD_UpdatePolicy-ModelProxy.ppt Samantha C - Update Policy]
 +
* [http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/download.php?file=/dsdp/dd/2006-2-22_Toronto_DD_SPIRIT_Overview.ppt Hobson B - SPIRIT for EDA]
 +
* [http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/download.php?file=/dsdp/dd/2006-2-22_Toronto_DD_SPIRIT_ForDebug.ppt Hobson B - SPIRIT for Debuggers]
 +
* [http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/download.php?file=/dsdp/dd/2006-2-22_Toronto_DD_TargetDescriptions.ppt Aaron S - Target Descriptions in SPIRIT ]
  
== Minutes ==
+
== Minutes - Wednesday DD Meeting ==
* Eclipse 3.2 Debug Platform
+
=== Eclipse 3.2 Debug Platform - Demos / feedback session on prototyping ===
** Demos / feedback session on prototyping – IBM, Wind River, QNX/CDT, others?
+
* Pawel Piech - Wind River
*** Pawel Piech - Wind River
+
** Implemented directly against platform
**** Implemented directly against platform
+
** [http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/download.php?file=/dsdp/dd/2006-2-22_Toronto_DD_PDA_Prototype.ppt Pawel P - PDA Prototype]
**** (presentation)
+
** The current state of the flexible hierachy aligns well with WR's debugger implementation.
**** The current state of the flexible hierachy aligns well with WR's debugger implementation.
+
** Main issues at this point:   
**** Main issues at this point:   
+
*** Need retargetable actions
***** Need retargetable actions
+
*** Need public interface to get at standard images for label providers
***** Need public interface to get at standard images for label providers
+
*** Column support in views is incomplete at this point
***** Column support in views is incomplete at this point
+
* Alan Boxall
*** Alan Boxall
+
** Implemented directly against platform
**** Implemented directly against platform
+
** Moving from 3.0 to 3.1 - the biggest challenge was to get the multi-threaded UI to talk to their synchronous debug engine.
**** Moving from 3.0 to 3.1 - the biggest challenge was to get the multi-threaded UI to talk to their synchronous debug engine.
+
*** They queue up all asynchronous requests.  They use a lot of caching.
***** They queue up all asynchronous requests.  They use a lot of caching.
+
** They are using the compatibility mode right now.
**** They are using the compatibility mode right now.
+
** Taking advantage of 3.2 EDM in the future:  eventually, IBM's debug engines will drive the hieararchy.
**** Taking advantage of 3.2 EDM in the future:  eventually, IBM's debug engines will drive the hieararchy.
+
** Number of jobs is somewhat alarming.  (See performance discussions below.)
**** Number of jobs is somewhat alarming.  (See performance discussions below.)
+
** Plan to do some prototyping against flexible hierarchy after 3.2 is released.
**** Plan to do some prototyping against flexible hierarchy after 3.2 is released.
+
* Mikhail Khodjaiants, QNX
*** Mikhail Khodjaiants, QNX
+
** [http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/download.php?file=/dsdp/dd/2006-2-22_Toronto_DD_CDT_FlexHierarchyUpdate.ppt Mikhail K - CDT Flexible Hiearchy Update]
**** (presentation)
+
** CDT has requests to provide customized versions of variables and registers view.  Probably will happen after CDT 3.2.
**** CDT has requests to provide customized versions of variables and registers view.  Probably will happen after CDT 3.2.
+
** Using compatibility mode right now for flexibile hierarchy (for 3.1).  Still need more investigation for how to expose customization.
**** Using compatibility mode right now for flexibile hierarchy (for 3.1).  Still need more investigation for how to expose customization.
+
** TI:  
**** TI:  
+
*** We need flexible hierarchy exposed at CDI layer.
***** We need flexible hierarchy exposed at CDI layer.
+
*** We use disassmebly view.  Need a disassembly memory renderer.
***** We use disassmebly view.  Need a disassembly memory renderer.
+
*** Summary, they need flexibility at top and bottom.
***** Summary, they need flexibility at top and bottom.
+
*** They would like to see CDT define a more embedded-centric user experience without major changes to CDI.
***** They would like to see CDT define a more embedded-centric user experience without major changes to CDI.
+
*** Some view customizations.
***** Some view customizations.
+
** Freescale:
**** Freescale:
+
*** Multi-core flexibility is important.
***** Multi-core flexibility is important.
+
** Nokia:
**** Nokia:
+
*** Similar comments to TI.
***** Similar comments to TI.
+
* ATI
*** ATI
+
** Builds against Eclipse platform, but haven't had a chance to look at 3.2 yet.
**** Builds against Eclipse platform, but haven't had a chance to look at 3.2 yet.
+
* AMI
*** AMI
+
** Builds against Eclipse platform.
**** Builds against Eclipse platform.
+
** Migrated an old VB debugger.  Looked at CDT and did some prototyping, but decided it would be too much work.
**** Migrated an old VB debugger.  Looked at CDT and did some prototyping, but decided it would be too much work.
+
** They are lacking some features using the platform directly, but also believe they have less problems.  One big issue was using GDB with their architecture.
**** They are lacking some features using the platform directly, but also believe they have less problems.  One big issue was using GDB with their architecture.
+
** First product: Oct 05 and based on 3.1.
**** First product: Oct 05 and based on 3.1.
+
** Biggest issue is trying to use the memory view with their architecture.
**** Biggest issue is trying to use the memory view with their architecture.
+
** Haven't prototyped against 3.2 EDM yet, but they can benefit from simplified hiearchy.  Update policies are also critically important because of very slow target connections.  Will focus on 3.2 after April.
**** Haven't prototyped against 3.2 EDM yet, but they can benefit from simplified hiearchy.  Update policies are also critically important because of very slow target connections.  Will focus on 3.2 after April.
+
** Continually re-evaluate CDT.  Could potentially use parts of CDT.
**** Continually re-evaluate CDT.  Could potentially use parts of CDT.
+
* PalmSource
*** PalmSource
+
** Have a released product on 3.0 with a customized CDT.
**** Have a released product on 3.0 with a customized CDT.
+
** Working on a 3.1-based product with un-modified CDT.  Trying to use GDB.
**** Working on a 3.1-based product with un-modified CDT.  Trying to use GDB.
+
** Also like view customization.
**** Also like view customization.
+
 
* TI: Demo of view customizations in E 3.1
 
* TI: Demo of view customizations in E 3.1
 
** Variables and registers view are in table tree format (using tree control)
 
** Variables and registers view are in table tree format (using tree control)
* Performance discussion
+
 
*** IBM will come to EclipseCon that shows performance across multiple versions
+
=== EDM 3.2 Progress Update – Darin W (IBM) ===
*** Concerns about the large numbers of working threads spawned
+
* Stuff in M5 (public API freeze)
*** Will have some suggestions for performance improvements
+
** Virtual tree - turned out to be more complicated than they thought.
*** Action items:  each company should run its own performance numbers
+
** Virtual table
* Update Policy  
+
** Incremental load
** Progress Update – Samantha (IBM)
+
* Stuff not in M5
*** (presentation)
+
** Scopes / drag and drop
**** Slide 4:  Element, Model Proxy Factory, Model Proxy, and Model provided by client.  "Update Policy" is actually "View Updater"
+
** Columns
*** Implementation is in the model and is model-specific.
+
* Moving forward, our API's are provisional, so we can still make changes.
*** Still work to do before we have a generic implementation.
+
** March 30 - M6 feature freeze - only 3 weeks of development left
*** Update policy will have to be part of viewer, and model proxy will have to be part of the model.
+
** Columns and removing the last remaining synchronous interfaces
** Need to form a workgroup to address the issues in Samantha's presentation.  Need to collect use cases from folks in this group.
+
* What's next after the 3.2 release?
** Need to share a common look-and-feel, even if the implementation is in the model.
+
** How much feedback they get will determine how quickly these provisional API's can be public
** What's in 3.2
+
** Would need feedback in first 3 months:  July - Sept
*** You can create model Proxies that tell how and when debug events are handled
+
** The customized view content may have to go through another cycle.
*** Not there: a generic update policy
+
* 125374 - multi-column support in variables view:  patch posted.  Darin says this is close to the actual design.  Ted would like more granuality in toggling specific columns on and off.  Ted will add this to bug entry.
* Memory View
+
* Plugable cell editors probably won't make the release.  Ted to look at provided a patch to possibly help get this in.
** Demo by Ted Williams (WR) of new renderer for memory view.
+
* API versioning - adding new interfaces on top of old ones vs. deprecating.  When are interfaces collapsed together
** DD group would like this contributed
+
** Intention is that the adapters would live for a while in order to enable the backward-compatible debug model.
** Other features
+
* Using the editor with multiple debugging backends
*** Programmatic foreground and background coloring
+
** Double-click gutter action - how is this resolved when the same editor is shared between two debug engines.
*** Customizable context menu  
+
** Seems to be a bigger problem that spans multiple projects:  CDT, DD, PTP
*** Symbol interleave with address bar
+
 
*** Optional confirm before write
+
=== Performance discussion ===
*** Undo write
+
* IBM will come to EclipseCon that shows performance across multiple versions
*** Column headings with sub-address - user can turn on and off
+
* Concerns about the large numbers of working threads spawned
** EDM 3.2 Progress Update – Darin W (IBM)
+
* Will have some suggestions for performance improvements
*** Stuff in M5 (public API freeze)
+
* Action items:  each company should run its own performance numbers
**** Virtual tree - turned out to be more complicated than they thought.
+
 
**** Virtual table
+
=== Update Policy ===
**** Incremental load
+
* Progress Update – Samantha (IBM)
*** Stuff not in M5
+
** [http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/download.php?file=/dsdp/dd/2006-2-22_Toronto_DD_UpdatePolicy-ModelProxy.ppt Samantha C - Update Policy]
**** Scopes / drag and drop
+
*** Slide 4:  Element, Model Proxy Factory, Model Proxy, and Model provided by client.  "Update Policy" is actually "View Updater"
**** Columns
+
** Implementation is in the model and is model-specific.
*** Moving forward, our API's are provisional, so we can still make changes.
+
** Still work to do before we have a generic implementation.
**** March 30 - M6 feature freeze - only 3 weeks of development left
+
** Update policy will have to be part of viewer, and model proxy will have to be part of the model.
**** Columns and removing the last remaining synchronous interfaces
+
* Need to form a workgroup to address the issues in Samantha's presentation.  Need to collect use cases from folks in this group.
*** What's next after the 3.2 release?
+
* Need to share a common look-and-feel, even if the implementation is in the model.
**** How much feedback they get will determine how quickly these provisional API's can be public
+
* What's in 3.2
**** Would need feedback in first 3 months: July - Sept
+
** You can create model Proxies that tell how and when debug events are handled
**** The customized view content may have to go through another cycle.
+
** Not there: a generic update policy
*** 125374 - multi-column support in variables view:  patch postedDarin says this is close to the actual designTed would like more granuality in toggling specific columns on and off.  Ted will add this to bug entry.
+
 
*** Plugable cell editors probably won't make the releaseTed to look at provided a patch to possibly help get this in.
+
=== Memory View ===
*** API versioning - adding new interfaces on top of old ones vs. deprecatingWhen are interfaces collapsed together
+
* Demo by Ted Williams (WR) of new renderer for memory view.
**** Intention is that the adapters would live for a while in order to enable the backward-compatible debug model.
+
* DD group would like this contributed
*** Using the editor with multiple debugging backends
+
* Other features
**** Double-click gutter action - how is this resolved when the same editor is shared between two debug engines.
+
** Programmatic foreground and background coloring
**** Seems to be a bigger problem that spans multiple projects:  CDT, DD, PTP
+
** Customizable context menu  
* Contributions and Participation Discussion
+
** Symbol interleave with address bar
** See Felix's notes
+
** Optional confirm before write
** How can we get better participation to help Darin out on the debugger interfaces and views?
+
** Undo write
** Where do we want to go next?  Volunteers for implementation?
+
** Column headings with sub-address - user can turn on and off
*** New breakpoint features?
+
 
*** More memory rendering?
+
=== Contributions and Participation Discussion ===
*** Multi-core
+
* Proposal:  Technology sub-groups
*** Sample debugger implementation from Wind River?
+
** Purpose is to create faster progress on the many technical areas the group wants to purpose.
*** Debug console
+
{| border="1"
 +
| '''Technology''' || '''Lead''' || '''Members'''
 +
|-
 +
| [[DSDP/DD/DebugView|Debug view]] || Paul Gingrich (TI) || TBD
 +
|-
 +
| [[DSDP/DD/MemoryView|Memory]] || Samantha Chan (IBM)  || Ted Williams (WR), Freescale, AMI
 +
|-
 +
| [[DSDP/DD/ExpressionsAndVariablesViews|Expressions & Variables]] || Ken Ryall (Nokia) || Ted Williams (WR), Pete Nichols (IBM)
 +
|-
 +
| [[DSDP/DD/RegistersView|Registers]] || Kirk Beitz (Freescale) || Ted Williams (WR), Pete Nichols (IBM), ATI
 +
|-
 +
| [[DSDP/DD/BreakpointsView|Breakpoints]] || Ewa Matejska (PalmSource) || Pawel Piech (WR), Mikhail Khodjaiants (QNX), TI, Nokia
 +
|-
 +
| [[DSDP/DD/ConsoleView|Console - Debug/Serial/Network]] || Aaron Spear (Mentor) || Freescale, AMI, PalmSource
 +
|-
 +
| [[DSDP/DD/DisassemblyView|Disassembly]] || Chris Recoskie (TI) - temporary lead || Wind River
 +
|-
 +
| [[DSDP/DD/GeneralViewManagement|Views - multi-context, pin/clone, update policy]] || Darin Wright (IBM) || Samantha Chan (IBM), Ted Williams (WR)
 +
|-
 +
| [[DSDP/DD/DebugModel|Debug Model]] || Pawel Piech (Wind River) || Mikhail Khodjaiants (QNX), Freescale, Nokia
 +
|-
 +
| [[DSDP/DD/Launch|Launching]] || Pete Nichols (IBM) || TI
 +
|-
 +
| [[DSDP/DD/Editor|Editor]] || Ewa Matejska (PalmSource) || Pete Nichols(IBM), Nokia
 +
|-
 +
| [[DSDP/DD/SourceLookup|Source Lookup]] || Pawel Piech (Wind River) || Pete Nichols(IBM)
 +
|-
 +
| [[DSDP/DD/Spirit|SPIRIT]] || Aaron Spear (ATI/Mentor) ||
 +
|}
 +
* Technology sub-groups Tasks
 +
** Leader drives discussions and prototyping on their technology.  Leader initiates conference calls, starts a wiki page (see link above), collects requirements, and investigates/delegates prototyping.  Leader is responsible for making sure the discussion is progressing.  Leaders have commit rights to DD.
 +
** Team members help provide requirements and help prototype.
 +
** All communications should happen on dsdp-dd-dev mailing list for visibility.
 +
** By next meeting:  Lead should have requirements at minimum, but should also have prototype if at all possible, since having something to look at will generate better feedback.
 +
* Current developer commitments (used to build table above)
 +
** TI
 +
*** 1 half-time engineer
 +
*** Plan to update memory rendings, registers view, and variables view over the course of this year.  Targeting Eclipse 3.1.2. right now management.  Eclipse 3.2 product will release late summer / early fall.
 +
** WR
 +
*** 2 half-time+ engineers
 +
*** Picking up 3.2 in fall release.
 +
** Freescale
 +
*** Still working on first eclipse based product, so not yet ready to commit to providing fixes for any issues.  After first release, they will have more breathing room for possible contributions.
 +
** PalmSource
 +
*** Also releasing first product, but could probably get some resources approved if community can delegate some work, especially in CDT. Looking for direction and needs from Mikhail.
 +
** ATI (Mentor)
 +
*** Still evangelizing internallySPIRIT participation is definitely possiblePotentially some tool contributions for creating, parsing, and checking SPIRIT files.
 +
** AMI
 +
*** Really want to contribute, but have no resources yetCould possibily contribute a debug console.  
 +
** Nokia
 +
*** Would like to contribute work on the views. Currently working on second Eclipse productLooking at adding extensible breakpoint behavior and possibly some work on variable detail formatting for c++.  After that they'll look at feedback from customers to help set priorities.
 +
** IBM
 +
*** 1 engineer
 +
*** Memory update policies and possibly contribute inbound launch code.  Need to think about other areas.
 +
* How can we get better participation to help Darin out on the debugger interfaces and views?
 +
* Where do we want to go next?  Volunteers for implementation?
 +
** New breakpoint features?
 +
** More memory rendering?
 +
** Multi-core
 +
** Sample debugger implementation from Wind River?
 +
** Debug console
 
* Committer List
 
* Committer List
 
** This list is based on the sub-project leads who volunteer to build use-cases and coordinate prototyping for platform improvements.  The commiters will have edit access to the Wiki and DSDP/DD CVS repository.
 
** This list is based on the sub-project leads who volunteer to build use-cases and coordinate prototyping for platform improvements.  The commiters will have edit access to the Wiki and DSDP/DD CVS repository.
Line 123: Line 188:
 
** Pawel Piech (Wind River)
 
** Pawel Piech (Wind River)
 
** Pete Nichols (IBM)
 
** Pete Nichols (IBM)
** Ewa Matejska (PalmSource)
 
 
** Ted Williams (WR)
 
** Ted Williams (WR)
* Miscellaneous
+
 
** Eclipse 3.2 launching framework feedback
+
=== Miscellaneous ===
*** (subset of presentation from EclipseCon "Integrating Custom Debuggers into the Eclipse Platform")
+
* Eclipse 3.2 launching framework feedback
* Thursday TM/DD joint session notes
+
** Darin described the launch changes in 3.2, which are covered in [http://eclipsezilla.eclipsecon.org/eclipsezilla/show_bug.cgi?id=58 "Integrating Custom Debuggers into the Eclipse Platform"] - his tutorial at EclipseCon 2006.
** Doug: Update on DSDP, Plans for EclipseCon
+
* Next Meeting - Late May / Early June.  Topics
*** See [http://www.eclipse.org/dsdp DSDP Website].  Discussed new sub-projects:  MTJ and NAB.  Project pages will be posted in 1 to 2 weeks.
+
** Technology sub-group updates
*** All companies will be represented at EclipseCon.  Aaron S, Mikhail K, Kirk B, Tom H won't be there, though.
+
** If face-to-face, do a possible coding camp to implement some prototypes and enhancements.
*** AI:  Doug to setup lunch tables - due by Mar 1.  Will coordinate with Doug S to not duplicate CDT areas.
+
 
*** BOF - schedule at the conference.
+
== Minutes - Thursday TM/DD joint session ==
** Hobston: SPIRIT
+
=== Update on DSDP, Plans for EclipseCon - Doug G ===
*** (2 presentations)
+
* See [http://www.eclipse.org/dsdp DSDP Website].  Discussed new sub-projects:  MTJ and NAB.  Project pages will be posted in 1 to 2 weeks.
*** First presentation - SPIRIT for EDA - this is more for information
+
* All companies will be represented at EclipseCon.  Aaron S, Mikhail K, Kirk B, Tom H won't be there, though.
*** Second presentation - SPIRIT for Debuggers
+
* AI:  Doug to setup lunch tables - due by Mar 1.  Will coordinate with Doug S to not duplicate CDT areas.
*** Debug working group is probably needed to drive the SPIRIT definition.
+
* BOF - schedule at the conference.
**** Ideal if Eclipse could join the consortium.  ARM and Mentor can be interfaces, too.
+
 
**** Hobson could work on setting up the debug working group.  Hobson will also check on what they can make available for parsers.  Hobson will check on licensing of SPIRIT XML files.
+
=== SPIRIT Discussion ===
*** Next steps
+
* Hobson - Introduction
**** Each member company to look into joining SPIRIT
+
** [http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/download.php?file=/dsdp/dd/2006-2-22_Toronto_DD_SPIRIT_Overview.ppt SPIRIT for EDA] - provided mostly for information and introduction
**** DSDP-DD and DSDP-TM to nominate representative for a debug working group
+
** [http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/download.php?file=/dsdp/dd/2006-2-22_Toronto_DD_SPIRIT_ForDebug.ppt SPIRIT for Debuggers]
**** DSDP-DD and/or DSDP-TM to build tools for generating/reading/validating SPIRIT files.  AI for Aaron to talk to company about potential contributions.  No Java Parser available yet for SPIRIT - we could contribute this in DD.
+
** Debug working group is probably needed to drive the SPIRIT definition.
** Doug - WR's data files standards
+
** Ideal if Eclipse could join the consortium.  ARM and Mentor can be interfaces, too.
*** Two feature requests from SPIRIT
+
** Hobson could work on setting up the debug working group.  Hobson will also check on what they can make available for parsers.  Hobson will check on licensing of SPIRIT XML files.
**** Board initialization specification
+
** Next steps
**** Help file indexing so registers can point to Silicon Vendor's pdf/html manuals
+
*** Each member company to look into joining SPIRIT
**** Flow:  SoC describes silicon -> Board vendor describes hardware and initialization -> user customizes initialization.   
+
*** DSDP-DD and DSDP-TM to nominate representative for a debug working group
** Aaron Spear - general discussion on SPIRIT requirements
+
*** DSDP-DD and/or DSDP-TM to build tools for generating/reading/validating SPIRIT files.  AI for Aaron to talk to company about potential contributions.  No Java Parser available yet for SPIRIT - we could contribute this in DD.
*** (presentation)
+
* Doug - WR's data files standards
*** Feedback on additional register spec requirements
+
** Two feature requests from SPIRIT
**** Unique ID
+
*** Board initialization specification
**** Initial grouping, but ability for a user to change groups
+
*** Help file indexing so registers can point to Silicon Vendor's pdf/html manuals
**** Textual descriptions - problematic for I18N - how should SPIRIT handle?
+
** Flow:  SoC describes silicon -> Board vendor describes hardware and initialization -> user customizes initialization.   
**** Mapping between debug format and registers - does this belong in SPIRIT or elsewhere?
+
* Aaron Spear - general discussion on SPIRIT requirements
**** Disassembly information should be a part of this - eventually we'd like table-driven disassembly - separate discussion
+
** [http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/download.php?file=/dsdp/dd/2006-2-22_Toronto_DD_TargetDescriptions.ppt Target Descriptions in SPIRIT ]
**** Endianness, default display size:  byte, word, long, double, etc.
+
** Feedback on additional register spec requirements
**** Help index
+
*** Unique ID
**** Long description for tool tip
+
*** Initial grouping, but ability for a user to change groups
*** Feedback on additional memory spec requirements
+
*** Textual descriptions - problematic for I18N - how should SPIRIT handle?
**** Flash - should be a separate discussion - CFI standard (?)
+
*** Mapping between debug format and registers - does this belong in SPIRIT or elsewhere?
**** Cache
+
*** Disassembly information should be a part of this - eventually we'd like table-driven disassembly - separate discussion
**** Virtual - should be a separate topic - ATI limited the XML to what's physically on the chip. - need to describe MMU structure
+
*** Endianness, default display size:  byte, word, long, double, etc.
**** Need to think about run-time memory map changes that are tied to the OS.  Debugger will need to look at the MMU structure and also need to know about kernel data structures to handle the effective-to-physical address translation.
+
*** Help index
**** Shared memory between cores
+
*** Long description for tool tip
 +
** Feedback on additional memory spec requirements
 +
*** Flash - should be a separate discussion - CFI standard (?)
 +
*** Cache
 +
*** Virtual - should be a separate topic - ATI limited the XML to what's physically on the chip. - need to describe MMU structure
 +
*** Need to think about run-time memory map changes that are tied to the OS.  Debugger will need to look at the MMU structure and also need to know about kernel data structures to handle the effective-to-physical address translation.
 +
*** Shared memory between cores
 +
 
 +
 
 +
[[Category:DSDP]]
 +
[[Category:DSDP/DD|Face-to-face Toronto 22-Feb-2006]]
 +
[[Category:Meeting Notes]]
 +
[[Category:Face to Face Meeting]]

Latest revision as of 13:56, 8 August 2006

Agenda & Attendee List

Presentations

Minutes - Wednesday DD Meeting

Eclipse 3.2 Debug Platform - Demos / feedback session on prototyping

  • Pawel Piech - Wind River
    • Implemented directly against platform
    • Pawel P - PDA Prototype
    • The current state of the flexible hierachy aligns well with WR's debugger implementation.
    • Main issues at this point:
      • Need retargetable actions
      • Need public interface to get at standard images for label providers
      • Column support in views is incomplete at this point
  • Alan Boxall
    • Implemented directly against platform
    • Moving from 3.0 to 3.1 - the biggest challenge was to get the multi-threaded UI to talk to their synchronous debug engine.
      • They queue up all asynchronous requests. They use a lot of caching.
    • They are using the compatibility mode right now.
    • Taking advantage of 3.2 EDM in the future: eventually, IBM's debug engines will drive the hieararchy.
    • Number of jobs is somewhat alarming. (See performance discussions below.)
    • Plan to do some prototyping against flexible hierarchy after 3.2 is released.
  • Mikhail Khodjaiants, QNX
    • Mikhail K - CDT Flexible Hiearchy Update
    • CDT has requests to provide customized versions of variables and registers view. Probably will happen after CDT 3.2.
    • Using compatibility mode right now for flexibile hierarchy (for 3.1). Still need more investigation for how to expose customization.
    • TI:
      • We need flexible hierarchy exposed at CDI layer.
      • We use disassmebly view. Need a disassembly memory renderer.
      • Summary, they need flexibility at top and bottom.
      • They would like to see CDT define a more embedded-centric user experience without major changes to CDI.
      • Some view customizations.
    • Freescale:
      • Multi-core flexibility is important.
    • Nokia:
      • Similar comments to TI.
  • ATI
    • Builds against Eclipse platform, but haven't had a chance to look at 3.2 yet.
  • AMI
    • Builds against Eclipse platform.
    • Migrated an old VB debugger. Looked at CDT and did some prototyping, but decided it would be too much work.
    • They are lacking some features using the platform directly, but also believe they have less problems. One big issue was using GDB with their architecture.
    • First product: Oct 05 and based on 3.1.
    • Biggest issue is trying to use the memory view with their architecture.
    • Haven't prototyped against 3.2 EDM yet, but they can benefit from simplified hiearchy. Update policies are also critically important because of very slow target connections. Will focus on 3.2 after April.
    • Continually re-evaluate CDT. Could potentially use parts of CDT.
  • PalmSource
    • Have a released product on 3.0 with a customized CDT.
    • Working on a 3.1-based product with un-modified CDT. Trying to use GDB.
    • Also like view customization.
  • TI: Demo of view customizations in E 3.1
    • Variables and registers view are in table tree format (using tree control)

EDM 3.2 Progress Update – Darin W (IBM)

  • Stuff in M5 (public API freeze)
    • Virtual tree - turned out to be more complicated than they thought.
    • Virtual table
    • Incremental load
  • Stuff not in M5
    • Scopes / drag and drop
    • Columns
  • Moving forward, our API's are provisional, so we can still make changes.
    • March 30 - M6 feature freeze - only 3 weeks of development left
    • Columns and removing the last remaining synchronous interfaces
  • What's next after the 3.2 release?
    • How much feedback they get will determine how quickly these provisional API's can be public
    • Would need feedback in first 3 months: July - Sept
    • The customized view content may have to go through another cycle.
  • 125374 - multi-column support in variables view: patch posted. Darin says this is close to the actual design. Ted would like more granuality in toggling specific columns on and off. Ted will add this to bug entry.
  • Plugable cell editors probably won't make the release. Ted to look at provided a patch to possibly help get this in.
  • API versioning - adding new interfaces on top of old ones vs. deprecating. When are interfaces collapsed together
    • Intention is that the adapters would live for a while in order to enable the backward-compatible debug model.
  • Using the editor with multiple debugging backends
    • Double-click gutter action - how is this resolved when the same editor is shared between two debug engines.
    • Seems to be a bigger problem that spans multiple projects: CDT, DD, PTP

Performance discussion

  • IBM will come to EclipseCon that shows performance across multiple versions
  • Concerns about the large numbers of working threads spawned
  • Will have some suggestions for performance improvements
  • Action items: each company should run its own performance numbers

Update Policy

  • Progress Update – Samantha (IBM)
    • Samantha C - Update Policy
      • Slide 4: Element, Model Proxy Factory, Model Proxy, and Model provided by client. "Update Policy" is actually "View Updater"
    • Implementation is in the model and is model-specific.
    • Still work to do before we have a generic implementation.
    • Update policy will have to be part of viewer, and model proxy will have to be part of the model.
  • Need to form a workgroup to address the issues in Samantha's presentation. Need to collect use cases from folks in this group.
  • Need to share a common look-and-feel, even if the implementation is in the model.
  • What's in 3.2
    • You can create model Proxies that tell how and when debug events are handled
    • Not there: a generic update policy

Memory View

  • Demo by Ted Williams (WR) of new renderer for memory view.
  • DD group would like this contributed
  • Other features
    • Programmatic foreground and background coloring
    • Customizable context menu
    • Symbol interleave with address bar
    • Optional confirm before write
    • Undo write
    • Column headings with sub-address - user can turn on and off

Contributions and Participation Discussion

  • Proposal: Technology sub-groups
    • Purpose is to create faster progress on the many technical areas the group wants to purpose.
Technology Lead Members
Debug view Paul Gingrich (TI) TBD
Memory Samantha Chan (IBM) Ted Williams (WR), Freescale, AMI
Expressions & Variables Ken Ryall (Nokia) Ted Williams (WR), Pete Nichols (IBM)
Registers Kirk Beitz (Freescale) Ted Williams (WR), Pete Nichols (IBM), ATI
Breakpoints Ewa Matejska (PalmSource) Pawel Piech (WR), Mikhail Khodjaiants (QNX), TI, Nokia
Console - Debug/Serial/Network Aaron Spear (Mentor) Freescale, AMI, PalmSource
Disassembly Chris Recoskie (TI) - temporary lead Wind River
Views - multi-context, pin/clone, update policy Darin Wright (IBM) Samantha Chan (IBM), Ted Williams (WR)
Debug Model Pawel Piech (Wind River) Mikhail Khodjaiants (QNX), Freescale, Nokia
Launching Pete Nichols (IBM) TI
Editor Ewa Matejska (PalmSource) Pete Nichols(IBM), Nokia
Source Lookup Pawel Piech (Wind River) Pete Nichols(IBM)
SPIRIT Aaron Spear (ATI/Mentor)
  • Technology sub-groups Tasks
    • Leader drives discussions and prototyping on their technology. Leader initiates conference calls, starts a wiki page (see link above), collects requirements, and investigates/delegates prototyping. Leader is responsible for making sure the discussion is progressing. Leaders have commit rights to DD.
    • Team members help provide requirements and help prototype.
    • All communications should happen on dsdp-dd-dev mailing list for visibility.
    • By next meeting: Lead should have requirements at minimum, but should also have prototype if at all possible, since having something to look at will generate better feedback.
  • Current developer commitments (used to build table above)
    • TI
      • 1 half-time engineer
      • Plan to update memory rendings, registers view, and variables view over the course of this year. Targeting Eclipse 3.1.2. right now management. Eclipse 3.2 product will release late summer / early fall.
    • WR
      • 2 half-time+ engineers
      • Picking up 3.2 in fall release.
    • Freescale
      • Still working on first eclipse based product, so not yet ready to commit to providing fixes for any issues. After first release, they will have more breathing room for possible contributions.
    • PalmSource
      • Also releasing first product, but could probably get some resources approved if community can delegate some work, especially in CDT. Looking for direction and needs from Mikhail.
    • ATI (Mentor)
      • Still evangelizing internally. SPIRIT participation is definitely possible. Potentially some tool contributions for creating, parsing, and checking SPIRIT files.
    • AMI
      • Really want to contribute, but have no resources yet. Could possibily contribute a debug console.
    • Nokia
      • Would like to contribute work on the views. Currently working on second Eclipse product. Looking at adding extensible breakpoint behavior and possibly some work on variable detail formatting for c++. After that they'll look at feedback from customers to help set priorities.
    • IBM
      • 1 engineer
      • Memory update policies and possibly contribute inbound launch code. Need to think about other areas.
  • How can we get better participation to help Darin out on the debugger interfaces and views?
  • Where do we want to go next? Volunteers for implementation?
    • New breakpoint features?
    • More memory rendering?
    • Multi-core
    • Sample debugger implementation from Wind River?
    • Debug console
  • Committer List
    • This list is based on the sub-project leads who volunteer to build use-cases and coordinate prototyping for platform improvements. The commiters will have edit access to the Wiki and DSDP/DD CVS repository.
    • Paul Gingrich (TI)
    • Samantha Chan (IBM)
    • Ken Ryall (Nokia)
    • Kirk Beitz (Freescale)
    • Ewa Matejska (PalmSource)
    • Aaron Spear (Mentor)
    • Chris Recoskie (TI)
    • Darin Wright (IBM)
    • Pawel Piech (Wind River)
    • Pete Nichols (IBM)
    • Ted Williams (WR)

Miscellaneous

  • Eclipse 3.2 launching framework feedback
  • Next Meeting - Late May / Early June. Topics
    • Technology sub-group updates
    • If face-to-face, do a possible coding camp to implement some prototypes and enhancements.

Minutes - Thursday TM/DD joint session

Update on DSDP, Plans for EclipseCon - Doug G

  • See DSDP Website. Discussed new sub-projects: MTJ and NAB. Project pages will be posted in 1 to 2 weeks.
  • All companies will be represented at EclipseCon. Aaron S, Mikhail K, Kirk B, Tom H won't be there, though.
  • AI: Doug to setup lunch tables - due by Mar 1. Will coordinate with Doug S to not duplicate CDT areas.
  • BOF - schedule at the conference.

SPIRIT Discussion

  • Hobson - Introduction
    • SPIRIT for EDA - provided mostly for information and introduction
    • SPIRIT for Debuggers
    • Debug working group is probably needed to drive the SPIRIT definition.
    • Ideal if Eclipse could join the consortium. ARM and Mentor can be interfaces, too.
    • Hobson could work on setting up the debug working group. Hobson will also check on what they can make available for parsers. Hobson will check on licensing of SPIRIT XML files.
    • Next steps
      • Each member company to look into joining SPIRIT
      • DSDP-DD and DSDP-TM to nominate representative for a debug working group
      • DSDP-DD and/or DSDP-TM to build tools for generating/reading/validating SPIRIT files. AI for Aaron to talk to company about potential contributions. No Java Parser available yet for SPIRIT - we could contribute this in DD.
  • Doug - WR's data files standards
    • Two feature requests from SPIRIT
      • Board initialization specification
      • Help file indexing so registers can point to Silicon Vendor's pdf/html manuals
    • Flow: SoC describes silicon -> Board vendor describes hardware and initialization -> user customizes initialization.
  • Aaron Spear - general discussion on SPIRIT requirements
    • Target Descriptions in SPIRIT
    • Feedback on additional register spec requirements
      • Unique ID
      • Initial grouping, but ability for a user to change groups
      • Textual descriptions - problematic for I18N - how should SPIRIT handle?
      • Mapping between debug format and registers - does this belong in SPIRIT or elsewhere?
      • Disassembly information should be a part of this - eventually we'd like table-driven disassembly - separate discussion
      • Endianness, default display size: byte, word, long, double, etc.
      • Help index
      • Long description for tool tip
    • Feedback on additional memory spec requirements
      • Flash - should be a separate discussion - CFI standard (?)
      • Cache
      • Virtual - should be a separate topic - ATI limited the XML to what's physically on the chip. - need to describe MMU structure
      • Need to think about run-time memory map changes that are tied to the OS. Debugger will need to look at the MMU structure and also need to know about kernel data structures to handle the effective-to-physical address translation.
      • Shared memory between cores