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Auto-conf meeting logs
Revision as of 12:27, 27 May 2007 by Onnadi3.mail.gatech.edu (Talk | contribs) (New page: <pre> *** onnadi3 [i=82cf935f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/ircatwork.com/x-6b272e4f5f832da1] has joined #eclipse-soc *** Topic is: SOC 2007 @ Eclipse is on! http://code.google.com/soc - Get help wi...)
*** onnadi3 [i=82cf935f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/ircatwork.com/x-6b272e4f5f832da1] has joined #eclipse-soc *** Topic is: SOC 2007 @ Eclipse is on! http://code.google.com/soc - Get help with ~help - List of accepted applications: http://code.google.com/soc/eclipse/about.html - Find information here: http://wiki.eclipse.org/index.php/Google_Summer_of_Code_2007 - Be patient and stick around for an answer - Subscribe to the mailinglist https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/soc-dev *** Topic set by pombreda [Sun Apr 15 18:10:57 2007] *** onnadi3 faern arhan pombred1 benny`patchslut rcjsuen kynes soulreaper lemmy Pookzilla zx KOS-MOS ijuma *** Channel created on Sun Nov 26 00:42:43 2006 <onnadi3> rcjsuen, lemmy: sorry, people. I'd been waiting in #eclipse_soc ... <rcjsuen> onnadi3: oh, sorry I was not clear <lemmy> Hi Ogehi <lemmy> +c <onnadi3> Hello, Markus <onnadi3> rcjsuen: nah, its my fault. I've been here before :-) <onnadi3> What's been happening in SoC, today? <lemmy> do we have a log? <onnadi3> Ach, I'm using a web client that doesn't support logging... <onnadi3> Can you log? <lemmy> yep, i'll log our conversations. <onnadi3> Good. Thanks <onnadi3> rcjsuen, lemmy: Shall we get down to business? <lemmy> later i'll try to setup logging which redirects to html. <lemmy> onnadi3: sure :) <rcjsuen> Yes, I'm here. <onnadi3> Excellent! <lemmy> remy: you got my email with the proposed agenda? <onnadi3> Yup. <rcjsuen> lemmy: yeah <onnadi3> Quick question before we start: does Eclipse have a "find in files" function? <rcjsuen> in my INBOX <rcjsuen> too <lemmy> ok, wasn't sure if it got caught in the spam filter again. %) <rcjsuen> onnadi3: if you use the search it'll search all open projects, dunno about specifying specific files <rcjsuen> lemmy: wel-, i am sure everyone is busy (except me), let's get started? <onnadi3> rcjsuen: alrighty. Thanks <onnadi3> Sure, let's start <lemmy> do we consider the channel log our meetings minutes? <onnadi3> Sounds fine <rcjsuen> fine by me <lemmy> has either of you anything to add to the agenda? <onnadi3> Nope <rcjsuen> seems ok <rcjsuen> if something comes up i will say something <lemmy> ok, so lets get started with "project documentation". <lemmy> i guess the wiki is a good place to keep general text. <lemmy> but what about diagrams and such, do we wanna use UML? do we need it? <lemmy> Ogechi: are you familiar with UML? <rcjsuen> I've never used UML outside of school, so I am fine if we don't use it <rcjsuen> and that was for like...one term <onnadi3> lemmy: I know of it but haven't used it. It'll be useful if we get're building a boatload of classes <onnadi3> lemmy: I think we should start with prose first and get into UML as the need arises <lemmy> fine with me, lets try to limit the new things in this project. <lemmy> s/things/technology <rcjsuen> lemmy: agreed <onnadi3> agreed <lemmy> so for the project we will work with written text. <onnadi3> For documentation, we'll basically need inline comments, and perhaps a "how to hack" document, right? <onnadi3> lemmy: yup <rcjsuen> yes, the atter is extremey important <rcjsuen> there goes my keys again <lemmy> what do you guys understand under a "how to hack"? <rcjsuen> for there to be users, you need to have a good howto guide <rcjsuen> because we are a-- -azy and woud rather not try to figure out how to use a too- <onnadi3> "how-to-hack: A doc describing how a program was built to aid other developers in modifying it later" <onnadi3> rcjsuen: been typing too long? ;-) <rcjsuen> onnadi3: maybe, dunno, oh wel- <lemmy> to me this sound a little bit too generic. i'd like to narrow it down, so we all expect the same from it. <lemmy> i guess this tool isn't targetted on end users, hence an isv might be appropriate. <rcjsuen> true <onnadi3> what is an ISV? <rcjsuen> embedded in ec-ipse -ike what p-atform does? <rcjsuen> something software vendor i think it is <rcjsuen> independent maybe <onnadi3> For the "how to hack" what I had in mind was something like the documentation for TeX: sthg. that describes data structures used and mnotivation for it. Is this still, too generic <onnadi3> not in WEB, of course <lemmy> maybe we should divide it. we need documentation for people working with the code base and also for people using the codebase. <lemmy> for the latter the typical eclipse documentation for extensionpoints... would probably be the best. for the former i would choose uml. ;p <onnadi3> lemmy: by, people using the codebase, do you mean end-users? <lemmy> onnadi3: yep <lemmy> but i suppose such end-users would be developer too. <lemmy> +s <onnadi3> Yeah, so the "how to hack" will be targetted to developers, and the end-user docs can ba called the user manual <lemmy> makes sense to me <onnadi3> (good point about needing separte docs) <lemmy> anything to add in regards to doc? <rcjsuen> newp <onnadi3> The user manual will have the usual stuff like "how to install", how to use, how to uninstall etc. while the dev-docs will just describe how to extend the plugin etc. <lemmy> since the code will be bundled as plug-ins, we won't need a install/uninstall doc. this is descibed in the osgi/eclipse documentation. <lemmy> onnadi3: is this your first eclipse plug-in you write? <onnadi3> ahem...yeah <onnadi3> :-) <lemmy> no problem :) <rcjsuen> no worries, a lot of ppl last year never wrote a plug-in <lemmy> onnadi3: do you have eclipse open atm? <onnadi3> I'm opening it right now <lemmy> ok, i'll grab a new cup of coffee. <rcjsuen> That means he hasnt gone over to the dark side yet. <onnadi3> oh boy... :-) <lemmy> with the dark side being? <onnadi3> BTW, (while eclipse loads) are we going to hashout all the details of what will be in the docs, or just the general plan? <rcjsuen> if you have eclipse open all the time even when you don't really need it <onnadi3> (Eclipse is up!) <lemmy> for me the general plan is enough atm. <onnadi3> okey-dokey <rcjsuen> as the project (and its scope) is defined (and refined), the details will hash themselves out I think <lemmy> i just want to make sure, we agree on the same thing. :) <onnadi3> rcjsuen: glad to see the fire of your Eclipse youth is not out ;) <onnadi3> lemmy: alrighty <lemmy> onnadi3: if you open the help system, the "JDT plug-in developer guide" might be a good example of what i think would be good end-user doc. <lemmy> certainly not that big though <onnadi3> Ah. I see and understand <onnadi3> That's some pretty documentation <rcjsuen> imo one of the first things that should be done in the documentation phase is properly bui-ding a source plug-in + embedded docs as above <lemmy> btw. suppose we're all happy with the outcome of the project at the end of summer, could you imagine to continue working on the project? <onnadi3> "source plugin"? <rcjsuen> onnadi3: something that includes the java source code of the binary jar that you distribute <rcjsuen> lemmy: yes good question <onnadi3> Hell yeah, I'd continue. This is my first shot at real fame und fortune :) <rcjsuen> onnadi3: many students from the previous year, if you wi-- move on as we--, that is not an issue <lemmy> onnadi3: the question aims at the "internal" documentation. if you're still around to answer questions, we don't need a thoroughly doc. <lemmy> though it is desirable. <onnadi3> Very desirable. You never know when I might get run over by a bus <lemmy> lets hope not at all. ;o <onnadi3> So I think we're good for the user docs. For the dev docs, are y'all fine with something like the TeX docs? <lemmy> you mean something written in tex? i must confess, i don't know the tex documentation. <onnadi3> Oh no no. I mean, the documentation of TeX <lemmy> s/must/have to <onnadi3> http://tex.loria.fr/tex-source/tex-source.html <onnadi3> You'll need a dvi previewer to view it <onnadi3> Basically, I'm just thinking of documentation as detailed as that so that someone can easily understand the source <rcjsuen> if you can go a-- out, that wou-d be great <lemmy> i like detailed. ;) <onnadi3> Deal <onnadi3> So that'll be all the documentation we need for this project right? Are we ready to move on to the next poin in the agenda? <lemmy> what i usually miss the most in terms of project documentation, is the big picture and the major design. <rcjsuen> onnadi3: i think so <lemmy> i don't need a class that contains more javadoc than code. <lemmy> yep, enough for the documentation. ;) <lemmy> s/for the/with <lemmy> the next topic i'd like to see going into the project doc. ;) <lemmy> "Define some terms/Narrow down or extend the scope" <lemmy> i think we should try to come up with a clear understanding of what a service can and cannot be. <lemmy> this will most certainly influence the scope of the project. <lemmy> i could imagine using the wiki page (where i already created a section for it) ;) <lemmy> what is a service? what identifies a service... <lemmy> is the term service even approriate... <rcjsuen> maybe not <lemmy> the current use cases lead to something that i won't really call a service. <onnadi3> Well, a service can be anything that can be identified with URI...but for this Summer, my goal was only to write finders for services on the local machine <rcjsuen> lemmy: you want jdk autodetection, i don't think one woud really call a java runtime a esrvice <rcjsuen> service is something i shou-d be ab-e to restart through /etc/init.d <rcjsuen> and whatever that thing in Win32 is <lemmy> rcjsuen: or via the osgi console ;) <lemmy> maybe we should do the use cases before we define the term? <onnadi3> lemmy: perhaps. May we start with some from the proposal? <lemmy> sure :) <rcjsuen> markus: good idea <onnadi3> BTW, rcjsuen, do you have access to a copy of the proposal? <lemmy> should this be our homework assignment to write down the use cases on the wiki page? we could even ask other people to add theirs. <rcjsuen> markus: yes <onnadi3> Well, one case is like lemmy said, JDK, or gcc, or PERL detection <rcjsuen> lemmy: you need to change your name to start with a key that i dont -ose ha-fway <onnadi3> :-) <lemmy> rcjsuen: maybe you should get yourself a new keyboard instead. ;) <rcjsuen> it sounds -ike we are detecting binaries <rcjsuen> nuh-uh! :( <onnadi3> Well, the logic for detecting binaries is exactly the same needed to find a Webserver on port 80 <onnadi3> (well, kinna the same) <lemmy> onnadi3: lets collect use cases until the next meeting. then we choose some of them which make the most sense and compile the deliverables out of it? <onnadi3> lemmy: Could you please point me to the page you created? <lemmy> until then i think we should postpone the remaining technical agenda items. <lemmy> http://wiki.eclipse.org/index.php/An_auto-configuration_plugin_for_Eclipse <onnadi3> Alrighty! So, on to the organizational items, eh? <lemmy> rcjsuen: btw. i'll ask phillipe to grant you mentor rights in code.google.com. <lemmy> onnadi3: unless you have something technical to add. :) <onnadi3> lemmy: BTW, thanks for putting that page up <onnadi3> lemmy: nope, I'm ready to get orgnanized :) <lemmy> nah, don't mention it. that's what i'm here for. <lemmy> ok, "weekly status meetings". <lemmy> however, normally i prefer daily standup meetings, but this seems to be a problem timezone-wise. <lemmy> at least for me. you two live in the same tz. <onnadi3> oh we do? <onnadi3> rcjsuen: where are you? <onnadi3> *where do you live? <rcjsuen> onnadi3: canada <onnadi3> excellent <lemmy> onnadi3: and he's normally on irc 24/7 ;) <onnadi3> hehehe <onnadi3> I think we should have one weekly meeting, any weekday except Friday <lemmy> for the moment i'd suggest to use this timeslot for our weekly meetings?! <onnadi3> ahh... <lemmy> is it too early= <lemmy> ? <rcjsuen> ten am is fine with me <onnadi3> Could we push it back an hour or so. This waking up on a Saturday thing... :-D <rcjsuen> considering i wake up before seven sometimes <rcjsuen> yes, i just said i wake up before seven sometimes <onnadi3> Even in the summer?? <rcjsuen> yes <rcjsuen> rather, even on the weekends <onnadi3> <cringes> you're strong :) <lemmy> maybe we can move it to sunday then? <rcjsuen> sunday is sti-- a weekend ;p <lemmy> the nightclubs in india close around 1:30 <onnadi3> hahahahahhaa <lemmy> then i'm fine with 11:00am EST/8:30pm IST. <onnadi3> Alright. Saturdays, 11am EST/8:30pm IST starting from May 28? <lemmy> Sundays, 11am EST/8:30pm IST <rcjsuen> we are actua--y EDT, but okay ;p <rcjsuen> if we are fo--owing -ast yr-s schedu-e <onnadi3> Hmm, could we move it back to Saturday? 11am is kinna smack in the middle of church time <onnadi3> on Sundays, that is <rcjsuen> probab-y a week-y soc meeting on thursdays <onnadi3> rcjsuen: I second that <lemmy> rcjsuen: which time? <rcjsuen> lemmy: last year the whole group met on 1200 EDT and, er <rcjsuen> twenty-one hundred? <lemmy> yep <rcjsuen> Two meetings are held every Thursday: <rcjsuen> 1. 0900 PDT - 1200 EDT - 1600 UTC <rcjsuen> 2. 1600 PDT - 1900 EDT - 2300 UTC <rcjsuen> newp, nineteen hundred <rcjsuen> we had two to compensate time zone things <rcjsuen> (and commitments, of course, work/school/wahtever) <rcjsuen> dunno what is philippe's plan this yr <rcjsuen> hello my L key! <rcjsuen> oh nm its dead again ;( <onnadi3> aww <onnadi3> The Ls were nice :) <lemmy> I won't make 2300 utc for sure. <lemmy> 1600 will be hard too, considering that the day starts early in india. but i guess i don't have an option. <onnadi3> So, we'll be meeting on Thursdays and Saturdays, eh? <lemmy> rcjsuen: how long do those meetings usually last? * rcjsuen coughs. <rcjsuen> er, we-- <rcjsuen> we have doub-e the students this round ;p <rcjsuen> sometimes they go over an hr <lemmy> onnadi3: for saturday 10:30am EDT/8:00pm IST as a compromise? ;o <rcjsuen> anyway, this is un-ike-y to be set in stone <rcjsuen> since pom wou-d want to get a fee- for what students agree on this yr <onnadi3> lemmy: sure. (their clubs must be *really* good ;) ) <lemmy> onnadi3: it's better than being home alone. ;) <rcjsuen> lemmy: i'm home alone all the time <lemmy> rcjsuen: you're still young. <onnadi3> hahahahha * lemmy doesn't want to die alone. ;) <lemmy> so, saturdays 10:30am EDT/8:00pm IST it is? <rcjsuen> fine by me <onnadi3> fine by me <onnadi3> And this is starting from May 28? <lemmy> i don't mind if you have your breakfast while typing. ;) <lemmy> onnadi3: that depends on you. if it were for me, we could start right away. <onnadi3> lemmy: I'd love to start too but I'll be out of town three out of the coming four Saturdays <lemmy> just the saturdays or the whole week? <onnadi3> Just the weekends <onnadi3> So, I *could* work and send you updates by e-mail or whenever I catch you on IRC <rcjsuen> either would work <lemmy> rcjsuen: i suppose we won't start with the regular thursday meetings before the official gsoc beginning? <rcjsuen> un-ike-y <rcjsuen> the fact that not many ppl are here means something ;) <onnadi3> Cool, so I guess that's meeting schedules done with <onnadi3> Next up: deliverables? <lemmy> lets postpone it. currently everything is too vague to actually write it down. <rcjsuen> yes <lemmy> also for the milestones/road map <rcjsuen> yeep <onnadi3> On the topic of project housing, does Eclipse still use CVS for legacy reasons? <lemmy> eclipse.org offers svn as well as cvs. <rcjsuen> cvs works so we stick with cvs i spose <lemmy> onnadi3: you're familiar with svn? <onnadi3> Yup...and I love it <onnadi3> So, if we could use it instead of cvs... ;) <lemmy> I'm fine with svn too. If it is technically possible, we should you is. But first we need to talk about the license you want to choose for the code. <lemmy> this is important if we can or cannot use eclipse.org <lemmy> onnadi3: do you have a license model in mind? <rcjsuen> There is also the issue of 3rd party libs <rcjsuen> to factor into the equation, if any <onnadi3> um...I'm a big fan of "Do as you damned well please, just don't give it the same name as mine" <lemmy> rcjsuen: maybe you like to elaborate on this topic? <onnadi3> Is there a license for that? <rcjsuen> we--, licenses ilke those would probably be compatible with the ep <rcjsuen> epl <rcjsuen> onnadi3: for these super-lax licenses, you probaby want to -ook at mit or bsd <rcjsuen> http://www.opensource.org/osi3.0/licenses/bsd-license.php and http://www.opensource.org/osi3.0/licenses/mit-license.php <onnadi3> And those could still be added to the Eclipse source?? <lemmy> onnadi3: if we want to see the code included in eclipse someday, the easiest would be to choose epl. <lemmy> but there is also the possibility of cross-licensing <rcjsuen> they can be committed to cvs but afaik, no one _works_ on the code that is under a different license at eclipse.org <rcjsuen> like we distribute ant with eclipse, but of course, ant development is done by Apache <onnadi3> ah. Then I probably want EPL. <rcjsuen> yes, dual-tri-multi-licensing schemes work too, as lemmy points out <rcjsuen> last yr i dual-ed mine <onnadi3> what licenses didja use? <rcjsuen> but when it came time to throw it on eclipse, i just removed the dual references <rcjsuen> i used MIT/X11 with EPL <rcjsuen> but yes, the easiest way out is to pick epl <lemmy> just keep in mind that epl and gpl are incompatible. <lemmy> it won't be possible to use gpl 3rd party libraries. <onnadi3> alrighty <lemmy> for drools i've checked already and it's apache license. <lemmy> just in case we'll use it. <onnadi3> lemmy: what is in the apache license? <onnadi3> (and where did you pick up "for drools"? ;) ) <lemmy> http://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0.html <onnadi3> Sorry, I meant what were you referring to when you said "I've checked"? <lemmy> drools is a rules engine which might get useful. <lemmy> maybe it's overkill though <onnadi3> oh...ah...I thought you were using it as a turn of phrase :) <lemmy> hehe, no. <onnadi3> Alright, so I guess its sorted for now: Eclipse license...unless we really need a library with a different license <lemmy> personally i think epl makes sense since i see this code going into eclipse at some point. <rcjsuen> yes, I think some of the projects will find it handy <onnadi3> here here <lemmy> if we agree on epl, we should get the paperwork rolling. i'll probably take a couple of weeks to get it done. <onnadi3> Paperwork?? What do we need to do? <rcjsuen> lemmy: paperwork for <rcjsuen> ? <lemmy> new committer? <rcjsuen> lemmy: well, i guess ask pombred1/wayne to get the ball rolling <lemmy> rcjsuen: i don't think philippe plans to do it in a batch. <lemmy> http://www.eclipse.org/projects/dev_process/new-committer.php <rcjsuen> we--, i did not mean -iterally <ijuma> conan is the person to ask about drools btw <ijuma> he's in #eclipse <rcjsuen> batch per se in a way cuz we need to hand in the names when we recreate soc component <ijuma> (if there are questions that is) <lemmy> ijuma: great, good to know somebody personally. :-) <ijuma> it's Mark Proctor btw <ijuma> the lead developer <lemmy> perfect <onnadi3> Does new committer have anythign to do with the license we choose? <ijuma> lemmy: yeah, irc is cool :) <lemmy> _if_ ogechi chooses to use a rule engine after all. ;) <ijuma> well, irc is still cool anyway ;) <lemmy> onnadi3: indirectly... <rcjsuen> It has to do with <rcjsuen> "DO NOT commit non-EPLed code" <rcjsuen> :P <lemmy> onnadi3: to get a developer account at eclipse.org, you need to go through this new committer process. <onnadi3> Ah, I got it <lemmy> using eclipse.org infrastructre makes only sense if you choose epl as a license. <onnadi3> lemmy: Don't I have to "prove my mettle" by at least writing some code first? That way it'll feel more special :) <lemmy> onnadi3: "normally" it is like that. you need to gain "meritocracy points" to be elected as a committer. <lemmy> but for soc it is different. <lemmy> this bug might make things clearer https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=143583 <lemmy> rcjsuen: correct me if i'm wrong, you know far more about this. <onnadi3> It does clear things up <lemmy> in #eclipse we have our first use case i suppose. ;) <onnadi3> in that case, I guess we've covered all possible ground today <lemmy> and it only took use 1,5h. ;) <rcjsuen> har <rcjsuen> but yes, the idea wou-d have been <onnadi3> We should probably try to meet up again to clear up the biz about deliverables etc. <rcjsuen> keep contributing till you drop <rcjsuen> but since it is a "new project <rcjsuen> new project has an initial set of committers <rcjsuen> so you guys will all be a subset of that set <rcjsuen> the other subset would be the mentors <lemmy> to wrap things up a litte... <lemmy> we'll have two different docs. end-user doc in the eclipse isv format and the internal doc like the tex doc <lemmy> until next week we'll write down use cases in the wiki <lemmy> the next irc status meeting will be on may 28 <lemmy> project will be licensed under epl <rcjsuen> kk <lemmy> regular status meetings will be on saturdays 10:30am EDT/8:00pm IST <onnadi3> So, I guess the conversation will continue asynchronously over the wiki...on the issue of use cases <lemmy> also we'll have general soc status meetings for which the final timing is still TBA <rcjsuen> yes <onnadi3> Sounds like a plan y'all <lemmy> onnadi3: you can add the wiki page to your watchlist. that way you'll receive emails once somebody modifies the page. <rcjsuen> wow that is friggin annoying <lemmy> one last thing. onnadi3 do you have a blog? <onnadi3> I don't have a blog <onnadi3> I thought the wiki was meant for updates on the status of the project etc.? <lemmy> idea is to create a blog for the three of us which we use to blog about the project. (eclipse has a vibrant blogging scene) <lemmy> http://planet.eclipse.org <onnadi3> Can't that be on the wiki page? It would fit nicely there <lemmy> it don't think it is technically possible to add a wiki page to the planet. <lemmy> also we'd not use it for technical discussion, much rather for PR instead. <lemmy> +but <lemmy> it's just an idea though. i don't wanna talk you into it.l <onnadi3> I'll see about that. I would like to put up general thoughts about the state of the project and all <lemmy> in general feel free to stop me/us if we rush things. :) <rcjsuen> :) <onnadi3> No problem. Things are sauntering by for now so I think I can handle it :) <lemmy> if you don't feel comfortable with something, just raise you voice. <onnadi3> NO PROBLEM <onnadi3> ;) <rcjsuen> He probably has a problem with my l key problem. <rcjsuen> Why speak of the devil here it is back online <rcjsuen> maybe for more than thirty seconds this time <lemmy> i think this is the most important point of this meeting. we mentors are meant to support you. we're not your boss. <onnadi3> That's good to know. Remy, Markus, thanks a lot for all your help <onnadi3> BTW, Remy, are you a he or a she? <onnadi3> (if you don't mind) <rcjsuen> np, -ooking forward to working with you in the coming months/weeks <lemmy> although we have a say in terms of payment. ;p <rcjsuen> I am a male. You can even get my mug shot here http://www.eclipsecon.org/2007/index.php?page=sub/&id=3829 <lemmy> wait a sec, let me find the brain pic... <rcjsuen> Markus and I go waaaaaaaaay back....to IRC ;P <lemmy> ah next time, it's stored on the usb drive. <onnadi3> :-) <onnadi3> Alright y'all...I think I shall mosey of now. I've got to please my current employer :) But I'll put up use cases as soon as I get em <rcjsuen> onnadi3: np, see you around <lemmy> have a nice day/weekend <onnadi3> bye bye