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Difference between revisions of "Architecture Council/Minutes September 11 2008"
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== Attendees == | == Attendees == | ||
* Sign up here (''alphabetical by last name''), since it's hard to catch all names during the call. | * Sign up here (''alphabetical by last name''), since it's hard to catch all names during the call. | ||
| − | * Signed-up: | + | * Signed-up: Chris Aniszczyk, John Arthorne, Wayne "Mad Dog" Beaton, Boris Bokowski, Eugene Chan, Brian Fitzpatrick, Philippe Mulet, Martin Oberhuber, Michael Scharf, August Schmidt, Darin Swanson, Thomas Watson, Darin Wright |
* Tentative: John Duimovich, David Williams (will join late, if my conflict ends early) | * Tentative: John Duimovich, David Williams (will join late, if my conflict ends early) | ||
* Regrets: Oliver Cole (standing meeting), John Graham(last minute client mtg), Richard Gronback (travelling), Mik Kersten (travelling), Markus Knauer (g-Eclipse tutorial), Andrew Overholt (meeting conflict), Gunnar Wagenknecht (city council meeting), John Wiegand (travelling) | * Regrets: Oliver Cole (standing meeting), John Graham(last minute client mtg), Richard Gronback (travelling), Mik Kersten (travelling), Markus Knauer (g-Eclipse tutorial), Andrew Overholt (meeting conflict), Gunnar Wagenknecht (city council meeting), John Wiegand (travelling) | ||
| Line 30: | Line 30: | ||
* Everyone to think about time commitments that can be made for "architectural things" at Eclipse (3 hours == 1 hr meeting + 2 hrs E-Mail and mentoring) | * Everyone to think about time commitments that can be made for "architectural things" at Eclipse (3 hours == 1 hr meeting + 2 hrs E-Mail and mentoring) | ||
* Everyone to propose new members on the mailing list | * Everyone to propose new members on the mailing list | ||
| − | * [[Image:Ok_green.gif]] Martin to create bugzilla bugs for the ISchedulingRule ({{bug|246840}} and LGPL {bug|246945}} discussions | + | * [[Image:Ok_green.gif]] Martin to create bugzilla bugs for the ISchedulingRule ({{bug|246840}} and LGPL {{bug|246945}} discussions |
=== Administrative === | === Administrative === | ||
| − | * Meeting Dates - | + | * Meeting Dates - 2nd thurs accepted by everyone |
* EAC and bugzilla, and the [http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/eclipse.org-architecture-council/msg00529.html E-Mail to Committers] | * EAC and bugzilla, and the [http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/eclipse.org-architecture-council/msg00529.html E-Mail to Committers] | ||
| − | ** | + | ** Accepted by everyone. There's not so much traffic yet, keep mailing list on for now. |
| − | + | ** Who wants to be a secret-keeper of the EAC user's bugzilla password? '''MichaelS''' | |
| − | ** Who wants to be a secret-keeper of the EAC user's bugzilla password? | + | |
* [[Architecture Council/Members and Mentors]] - is it accurate? | * [[Architecture Council/Members and Mentors]] - is it accurate? | ||
| − | + | ** Who's mentoring Apogee, COSMOS, Aperi? | |
| − | ** Who's mentoring Apogee? | + | *** Wayne: There are several mentor-less projects; in the past, projects have picked a mentor themselves - kick them to pick a mentor |
| − | ** | + | ** '''AI Wayne''' list mentor-less Technology projects; '''AI Other PMC's''' list mentor-less projects from their domain |
| − | ** | + | ** '''AI Everyone''' link to their Bio or Blog from the person name on the [[Architecture Council/Members and Mentors]] page |
| − | + | ||
| − | ** | + | |
* [http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/eclipse.org-architecture-council/msg00479.html Dormant Status Proposal]: | * [http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/eclipse.org-architecture-council/msg00479.html Dormant Status Proposal]: | ||
| − | ** | + | ** Accepted by everyone. Mike needs to sign off changes in membership. |
| − | + | ** Martin will try to keep track of activity, but can't promise. | |
* New Member Proposals: | * New Member Proposals: | ||
** Are we too big a crowd already? New Member Proposals? | ** Are we too big a crowd already? New Member Proposals? | ||
** Some ideas (from E4 mostly): Dave Carver, Tom Schindl, Scott Lewis, Konstantin Kommissarchik, Kevin McGuire, David Orme, Paul Webster, Paul Coltron | ** Some ideas (from E4 mostly): Dave Carver, Tom Schindl, Scott Lewis, Konstantin Kommissarchik, Kevin McGuire, David Orme, Paul Webster, Paul Coltron | ||
| + | *** Michael: Too big a crowd for round tables, but big crowd makes sense for "breakout style" meetings | ||
* Google Calendar Bugs and Requests -- does anybody know how to report them? | * Google Calendar Bugs and Requests -- does anybody know how to report them? | ||
** Changing an event, "Dont send" does send notifications | ** Changing an event, "Dont send" does send notifications | ||
** Response from to mailing list invitation should track attendance of each member separately | ** Response from to mailing list invitation should track attendance of each member separately | ||
| − | *Welcome Gunnar Wagenknecht as Technology PMC representative to the Architecture Council | + | ** Ed: It's good, people need reminders |
| + | ** Jeff: Meeting invite should have the call-in details in there, '''AI Martin''' add | ||
| + | * Wayne: Welcome Gunnar Wagenknecht as Technology PMC representative to the Architecture Council | ||
=== News from the Board (EMO) === | === News from the Board (EMO) === | ||
| Line 61: | Line 61: | ||
* Other channels (PlanetEclipse, Blog, Committers / Project-leads mailing list, ...) should work but 1st-hand is better | * Other channels (PlanetEclipse, Blog, Committers / Project-leads mailing list, ...) should work but 1st-hand is better | ||
* Do information channels work well? | * Do information channels work well? | ||
| + | ** Ed: told Mike that the information channels are not good enough yet | ||
| + | ** Wayne: Bjorn has been blogging heavily about changes in Dev process | ||
| + | ** Boris: Particularly when new rules are coming into effect, there needs to be an ML announcement | ||
| + | ** Jeff: Dev process change was in mid of vacation season | ||
| + | ** Jeff: Some discussions at the Board are confidential, but will take opportunity of this slot in the future | ||
| + | ** Ed: The IP issue is a good example for sharing discussions with the EAC (IP advisory committee) | ||
| + | ** Jeff: What's people's viewpoint on dual licensing? Where is the EPL not sufficient? | ||
| + | *** TomW: In Equinox Framework, would like to adopt more Apache | ||
| + | *** Martin: Dual-license is largely redundant (weaker license covers all) | ||
| + | *** Jeff: Being able to say that "Everything from Eclipse.org is EPL" is helpful | ||
| + | *** If somebody thinks that EPL is not sufficient for any reason, Jeff would like to know about it (and, make a CQ to Janet) | ||
=== Top Ten Recommendations === | === Top Ten Recommendations === | ||
| Line 67: | Line 78: | ||
* Add links into some code which exposes a recommendation as example? | * Add links into some code which exposes a recommendation as example? | ||
* Could easily convert a Recommendation into an article / blog post / ... ("The EAC Series") | * Could easily convert a Recommendation into an article / blog post / ... ("The EAC Series") | ||
| + | ** MichaelS: "Pattern" idea. Example: EMF -- there is "good" usage and "bad" usage, how to share such patterns? | ||
| + | ** Example: Dealing with commands, dealing with Concurrency, dealing with Preferences, separation of UI / Non-UI | ||
| + | ** Pattern is also: Advantages / Disadvantages / When to apply | ||
| + | * Boris: agree that it's good to flesh out these things, but not sure if Patterns is a good Next Step | ||
| + | ** One next step could be for AC members to blog about something | ||
| + | ** Martin: Just put together existing links to blogs / articles? '''AI Martin''' create Pattern page, '''AI Everyone''' link into pattern page | ||
| + | * '''AI Michael''' flesh out the idea and remind of the Pattern idea | ||
| + | ** Boris: Started a Wiki page called [[Ninja]] for advanced debugging tips | ||
=== Deadlocks, Jobs and Scheduling === | === Deadlocks, Jobs and Scheduling === | ||
* Examples: [https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=245573#c12 bug 245573 comment 12] (Dali JPA Tools Deadlock, John CC'd to EAC); {{bug|246840}} discussion about ISchedulingRule (saving project preferences) | * Examples: [https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=245573#c12 bug 245573 comment 12] (Dali JPA Tools Deadlock, John CC'd to EAC); {{bug|246840}} discussion about ISchedulingRule (saving project preferences) | ||
* What is causing issues? | * What is causing issues? | ||
| − | ** work performed during class loading (Activator.start()) - unknown context | + | ** work performed during class loading (Activator.start()) - unknown context, can run at unpredictable times |
| − | ** work performed in callbacks - unknown context | + | ** work performed in callbacks - unknown context, avoid synchronous callbacks |
| − | + | ** General recommendations: (e.g. avoid synchronous callbacks, avoid in Activator.start(), static initializers or Singleton getters) - a general recommendation could be to avoid performing work at unpredictable times, but that would recommend against lazy initialization in general | |
| − | * | + | *** Jeff: Split off e.g. '''top ten concurrency best practices''' |
| − | * | + | *** Boris: Fine with collecting more for now and then work on forking off |
| + | * Martin: Concurrency should be an item for [[E4]]. How is EAC related to E4? | ||
| + | ** Michael: Ask the E4 team to present architectural ideas to the AC | ||
| + | ** Ed: There are E4 calls, this would create duplication | ||
| + | ** DougS: There is no "E4 Architecture" per se, it's separate initiatives | ||
| + | |||
| + | === LGPL Works-with vs. Requires === | ||
| + | {{bug|246945}} | ||
| + | |||
| + | |||
| + | = Deferred = | ||
| + | == Concurrency == | ||
| + | * Top Ten Concurrency Best Practices? | ||
** Does anybody have a well-working, consistent model on top of the current infrastructure? | ** Does anybody have a well-working, consistent model on top of the current infrastructure? | ||
** Totally new concurrency mechanism as part of [[E4]] ? | ** Totally new concurrency mechanism as part of [[E4]] ? | ||
| Line 85: | Line 116: | ||
** Articles ? - John referenced the [http://www.eclipse.org/articles/Article-Resource-deltas/resource-deltas.html#1d resouce-deltas] article | ** Articles ? - John referenced the [http://www.eclipse.org/articles/Article-Resource-deltas/resource-deltas.html#1d resouce-deltas] article | ||
| − | |||
| − | |||
=== How to start Releng? === | === How to start Releng? === | ||
Revision as of 12:19, 11 September 2008
| Meeting Title: | Architecture Council Monthly Meeting |
| Date & Time: | Thursday September 11, 2008 at 1500 UTC / 0800 SFO / 1100 Ottawa / 1600 London / 1700 Berlin HTML |  iCal
|
| Dial-in: | (+1) 613.287.8000 (Ottawa and international) or 866.362.7064 (toll-free North America) passcode 464440# |
Contents
Attendees
- Sign up here (alphabetical by last name), since it's hard to catch all names during the call.
- Signed-up: Chris Aniszczyk, John Arthorne, Wayne "Mad Dog" Beaton, Boris Bokowski, Eugene Chan, Brian Fitzpatrick, Philippe Mulet, Martin Oberhuber, Michael Scharf, August Schmidt, Darin Swanson, Thomas Watson, Darin Wright
- Tentative: John Duimovich, David Williams (will join late, if my conflict ends early)
- Regrets: Oliver Cole (standing meeting), John Graham(last minute client mtg), Richard Gronback (travelling), Mik Kersten (travelling), Markus Knauer (g-Eclipse tutorial), Andrew Overholt (meeting conflict), Gunnar Wagenknecht (city council meeting), John Wiegand (travelling)
Agenda / Notes
- Feel free to edit, but not during the call!
Review of Action Items
- Last meeting Architecture Council/Minutes August 14 2008#Action Items
-
Boris to start Architecture Council/Top Ten Recommendations - Martin to draft an E-Mail to eclipse.org-committers for review, inviting to put EAC on CC of bugs
- Martin to send E-Mail to EAC list as a reminder for "Architectural Walkthrough".
- Mik to create initial "architectural walkthrough" material for mylyn. One more to follow before publicly announcing?
- MichaelS to draft an E-Mail about the "plugin granularity" idea, searching for people to lead the effort
- Bjorn or Anne to add a "year of appointment" to members on the councils page
- Martin to propose alternate meeting scheme on the mailing list
- Everyone to think about time commitments that can be made for "architectural things" at Eclipse (3 hours == 1 hr meeting + 2 hrs E-Mail and mentoring)
- Everyone to propose new members on the mailing list
- Martin to create bugzilla bugs for the ISchedulingRule (bug 246840 and LGPL bug 246945 discussions
Administrative
- Meeting Dates - 2nd thurs accepted by everyone
- EAC and bugzilla, and the E-Mail to Committers
- Accepted by everyone. There's not so much traffic yet, keep mailing list on for now.
- Who wants to be a secret-keeper of the EAC user's bugzilla password? MichaelS
- Architecture Council/Members and Mentors - is it accurate?
- Who's mentoring Apogee, COSMOS, Aperi?
- Wayne: There are several mentor-less projects; in the past, projects have picked a mentor themselves - kick them to pick a mentor
- AI Wayne list mentor-less Technology projects; AI Other PMC's list mentor-less projects from their domain
- AI Everyone link to their Bio or Blog from the person name on the Architecture Council/Members and Mentors page
- Who's mentoring Apogee, COSMOS, Aperi?
- Dormant Status Proposal:
- Accepted by everyone. Mike needs to sign off changes in membership.
- Martin will try to keep track of activity, but can't promise.
- New Member Proposals:
- Are we too big a crowd already? New Member Proposals?
- Some ideas (from E4 mostly): Dave Carver, Tom Schindl, Scott Lewis, Konstantin Kommissarchik, Kevin McGuire, David Orme, Paul Webster, Paul Coltron
- Michael: Too big a crowd for round tables, but big crowd makes sense for "breakout style" meetings
- Google Calendar Bugs and Requests -- does anybody know how to report them?
- Changing an event, "Dont send" does send notifications
- Response from to mailing list invitation should track attendance of each member separately
- Ed: It's good, people need reminders
- Jeff: Meeting invite should have the call-in details in there, AI Martin add
- Wayne: Welcome Gunnar Wagenknecht as Technology PMC representative to the Architecture Council
News from the Board (EMO)
- We have board reps and EMO reps on the council (Mike, Bjorn, Jeff, Ed, zx, Mik and Doug Gaff; Wayne)
- Would like to have a standing "news from the board" topic, since as mentors we should be top informed
- Other channels (PlanetEclipse, Blog, Committers / Project-leads mailing list, ...) should work but 1st-hand is better
- Do information channels work well?
- Ed: told Mike that the information channels are not good enough yet
- Wayne: Bjorn has been blogging heavily about changes in Dev process
- Boris: Particularly when new rules are coming into effect, there needs to be an ML announcement
- Jeff: Dev process change was in mid of vacation season
- Jeff: Some discussions at the Board are confidential, but will take opportunity of this slot in the future
- Ed: The IP issue is a good example for sharing discussions with the EAC (IP advisory committee)
- Jeff: What's people's viewpoint on dual licensing? Where is the EPL not sufficient?
- TomW: In Equinox Framework, would like to adopt more Apache
- Martin: Dual-license is largely redundant (weaker license covers all)
- Jeff: Being able to say that "Everything from Eclipse.org is EPL" is helpful
- If somebody thinks that EPL is not sufficient for any reason, Jeff would like to know about it (and, make a CQ to Janet)
Top Ten Recommendations
- Architecture Council/Top Ten Recommendations
- More recommendations?
- Add links into some code which exposes a recommendation as example?
- Could easily convert a Recommendation into an article / blog post / ... ("The EAC Series")
- MichaelS: "Pattern" idea. Example: EMF -- there is "good" usage and "bad" usage, how to share such patterns?
- Example: Dealing with commands, dealing with Concurrency, dealing with Preferences, separation of UI / Non-UI
- Pattern is also: Advantages / Disadvantages / When to apply
- Boris: agree that it's good to flesh out these things, but not sure if Patterns is a good Next Step
- One next step could be for AC members to blog about something
- Martin: Just put together existing links to blogs / articles? AI Martin create Pattern page, AI Everyone link into pattern page
- AI Michael flesh out the idea and remind of the Pattern idea
- Boris: Started a Wiki page called Ninja for advanced debugging tips
Deadlocks, Jobs and Scheduling
- Examples: bug 245573 comment 12 (Dali JPA Tools Deadlock, John CC'd to EAC); bug 246840 discussion about ISchedulingRule (saving project preferences)
- What is causing issues?
- work performed during class loading (Activator.start()) - unknown context, can run at unpredictable times
- work performed in callbacks - unknown context, avoid synchronous callbacks
- General recommendations: (e.g. avoid synchronous callbacks, avoid in Activator.start(), static initializers or Singleton getters) - a general recommendation could be to avoid performing work at unpredictable times, but that would recommend against lazy initialization in general
- Jeff: Split off e.g. top ten concurrency best practices
- Boris: Fine with collecting more for now and then work on forking off
- Martin: Concurrency should be an item for E4. How is EAC related to E4?
- Michael: Ask the E4 team to present architectural ideas to the AC
- Ed: There are E4 calls, this would create duplication
- DougS: There is no "E4 Architecture" per se, it's separate initiatives
LGPL Works-with vs. Requires
Deferred
Concurrency
- Top Ten Concurrency Best Practices?
- Does anybody have a well-working, consistent model on top of the current infrastructure?
- Totally new concurrency mechanism as part of E4 ?
- David Orme mentions DataBinding Realms and the Threads Considered Harmful blog which references Erlang message-based concurrence
- Would it help to become more asynchronous under the hood, even if old APIs need to remain for compatibility?
- Are there any other good known models for concurrency?
- Better Javadoc ?
- Example: ISchedulingRule.isConflicting() vs. ISchedulingRule.contains(), and how does it relate to RuleFactory and MultiRule?
- Articles ? - John referenced the resouce-deltas article
How to start Releng?
- Question from a new project: I am trying to create some update sites and build scripts for TmL and I am having some difficults to find some reference material to working with this. Do you have any idea where I can find a starter material to do that??
- Bjorn, NickB & Denis Build Workshop 3: Build Hard With A Purpose but is that an answer for now? Current status?
- Refer people to clone existing projects' releng? Which ones are good?
- Refer to the PDE Build docs? But that's only half of the story?
Other Ideas for Discussion
- Mentoring New Projects
- Experiences? What could be improved?
- Webpage improvements: more pre-canned content for new projects (like Sourceforge)?
- Mentoring Galileo: What could be improved?
- Running each project's unittests with full Galileo installed; especially interesting for Performance tests
- Don't duplicate work done by the Planning Council
- Integrated bug reporting: Mylyn is providing a bug/error/enhancement reporting facility that will provide a flexible and product-configurable mapping between features, bundles and bug trackers bug 212209 (Example: http://wiki.eclipse.org/images/8/86/Mylyn-Bug-Reporting-Example.jpg ). Do we want this for Galileo?
- E4 now has bi-weekly calls -- won't discuss E4 on the EAC unless asked / invited
- Eclipse Pain Points
- Performance & Memory Footprint, Bloat
- Restrictions on Resource model (Maven)
- IP due diligence and the processes around it
- Lots of these issues are already worked on by E4, and/or Committer Representatives at the Board, and/or the Planning Council
- But the EAC's charter includes identifying and naming pain pionts... anything not yet being addressed?
- Re-activate Top Ten Architectural Problems in all of Eclipse ?
- Re-activate Architecture Council Discovery and Reuse Activity ?