Difference between revisions of "Architecture Council/Minutes September 11 2008"

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== Attendees ==
 
== Attendees ==
 
* Sign up here (''alphabetical by last name''), since it's hard to catch all names during the call.
 
* Sign up here (''alphabetical by last name''), since it's hard to catch all names during the call.
* Signed-up: John Arthorne, Chris Aniszczyk, Wayne "Mad Dog" Beaton, Boris Bokowski, Eugene Chan, Brian Fitzpatrick, Philippe Mulet, Martin Oberhuber, Michael Scharf, August Schmidt, Darin Swanson, Thomas Watson, Darin Wright
+
* Signed-up: Chris Aniszczyk, John Arthorne, Wayne "Mad Dog" Beaton, Boris Bokowski, Eugene Chan, Brian Fitzpatrick, Philippe Mulet, Martin Oberhuber, Michael Scharf, August Schmidt, Darin Swanson, Thomas Watson, Darin Wright
 
* Tentative: John Duimovich, David Williams (will join late, if my conflict ends early)
 
* Tentative: John Duimovich, David Williams (will join late, if my conflict ends early)
 
* Regrets: Oliver Cole (standing meeting), John Graham(last minute client mtg), Richard Gronback (travelling), Mik Kersten (travelling), Markus Knauer (g-Eclipse tutorial), Andrew Overholt (meeting conflict), Gunnar Wagenknecht (city council meeting), John Wiegand (travelling)
 
* Regrets: Oliver Cole (standing meeting), John Graham(last minute client mtg), Richard Gronback (travelling), Mik Kersten (travelling), Markus Knauer (g-Eclipse tutorial), Andrew Overholt (meeting conflict), Gunnar Wagenknecht (city council meeting), John Wiegand (travelling)
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* Everyone to think about time commitments that can be made for "architectural things" at Eclipse (3 hours == 1 hr meeting + 2 hrs E-Mail and mentoring)
 
* Everyone to think about time commitments that can be made for "architectural things" at Eclipse (3 hours == 1 hr meeting + 2 hrs E-Mail and mentoring)
 
* Everyone to propose new members on the mailing list
 
* Everyone to propose new members on the mailing list
* [[Image:Ok_green.gif]] Martin to create bugzilla bugs for the ISchedulingRule ({{bug|246840}} and LGPL {bug|246945}} discussions
+
* [[Image:Ok_green.gif]] Martin to create bugzilla bugs for the ISchedulingRule ({{bug|246840}} and LGPL {{bug|246945}} discussions
  
 
=== Administrative ===
 
=== Administrative ===
* Meeting Dates - any additional comments? The vote was to keep 2nd thursday of each month (and I propose moving to tuesday as first choice in case there is a public holiday or other conflict on thursday).
+
* Meeting Dates - 2nd thurs accepted by everyone
 
* EAC and bugzilla, and the [http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/eclipse.org-architecture-council/msg00529.html E-Mail to Committers]
 
* EAC and bugzilla, and the [http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/eclipse.org-architecture-council/msg00529.html E-Mail to Committers]
** Spamming the list already?
+
** Accepted by everyone. There's not so much traffic yet, keep mailing list on for now.
** Virtual inbox (eac-inbox@eclipse.org) or direct mailing list address as bugzilla user?
+
** Who wants to be a secret-keeper of the EAC user's bugzilla password? '''MichaelS'''
** Who wants to be a secret-keeper of the EAC user's bugzilla password?
+
 
* [[Architecture Council/Members and Mentors]] - is it accurate?
 
* [[Architecture Council/Members and Mentors]] - is it accurate?
** What projects should have a mentor? (Every / Incubation / Those who ask / ...?)
+
** Who's mentoring Apogee, COSMOS, Aperi?
** Who's mentoring Apogee?
+
*** Wayne: There are several mentor-less projects; in the past, projects have picked a mentor themselves - kick them to pick a mentor
** What to do with the COSMOS and Aperi projects, which seem mentorless after Harm Sluiman quit
+
** '''AI Wayne''' list mentor-less Technology projects; '''AI Other PMC's''' list mentor-less projects from their domain
** Can we (auto)generate a list of mentor-less projects?
+
** '''AI Everyone''' link to their Bio or Blog from the person name on the [[Architecture Council/Members and Mentors]] page
** Other wishes for re-assigning mentorship?
+
** Should the list express some "area of expertise" with mentors like "technical/coder" vs. "management" ?
+
 
* [http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/eclipse.org-architecture-council/msg00479.html Dormant Status Proposal]:
 
* [http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/eclipse.org-architecture-council/msg00479.html Dormant Status Proposal]:
** Do the 3 month / 1 year times make sense?
+
** Accepted by everyone. Mike needs to sign off changes in membership.
** Mike needs to sign off changes in membership
+
** Martin will try to keep track of activity, but can't promise.
 
* New Member Proposals:
 
* New Member Proposals:
 
** Are we too big a crowd already? New Member Proposals?  
 
** Are we too big a crowd already? New Member Proposals?  
 
** Some ideas (from E4 mostly): Dave Carver, Tom Schindl, Scott Lewis, Konstantin Kommissarchik, Kevin McGuire, David Orme, Paul Webster, Paul Coltron
 
** Some ideas (from E4 mostly): Dave Carver, Tom Schindl, Scott Lewis, Konstantin Kommissarchik, Kevin McGuire, David Orme, Paul Webster, Paul Coltron
 +
*** Michael: Too big a crowd for round tables, but big crowd makes sense for "breakout style" meetings
 
* Google Calendar Bugs and Requests -- does anybody know how to report them?
 
* Google Calendar Bugs and Requests -- does anybody know how to report them?
 
** Changing an event, "Dont send" does send notifications
 
** Changing an event, "Dont send" does send notifications
 
** Response from to mailing list invitation should track attendance of each member separately
 
** Response from to mailing list invitation should track attendance of each member separately
*Welcome Gunnar Wagenknecht as Technology PMC representative to the Architecture Council
+
** Ed: It's good, people need reminders
 +
** Jeff: Meeting invite should have the call-in details in there, '''AI Martin''' add
 +
* Wayne: Welcome Gunnar Wagenknecht as Technology PMC representative to the Architecture Council
  
 
=== News from the Board (EMO) ===
 
=== News from the Board (EMO) ===
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* Other channels (PlanetEclipse, Blog, Committers / Project-leads mailing list, ...) should work but 1st-hand is better
 
* Other channels (PlanetEclipse, Blog, Committers / Project-leads mailing list, ...) should work but 1st-hand is better
 
* Do information channels work well?
 
* Do information channels work well?
 +
** Ed: told Mike that the information channels are not good enough yet
 +
** Wayne: Bjorn has been blogging heavily about changes in Dev process
 +
** Boris: Particularly when new rules are coming into effect, there needs to be an ML announcement
 +
** Jeff: Dev process change was in mid of vacation season
 +
** Jeff: Some discussions at the Board are confidential, but will take opportunity of this slot in the future
 +
** Ed: The IP issue is a good example for sharing discussions with the EAC (IP advisory committee)
 +
** Jeff: What's people's viewpoint on dual licensing? Where is the EPL not sufficient?
 +
*** TomW: In Equinox Framework, would like to adopt more Apache
 +
*** Martin: Dual-license is largely redundant (weaker license covers all)
 +
*** Jeff: Being able to say that "Everything from Eclipse.org is EPL" is helpful
 +
*** If somebody thinks that EPL is not sufficient for any reason, Jeff would like to know about it (and, make a CQ to Janet)
  
 
=== Top Ten Recommendations ===
 
=== Top Ten Recommendations ===
Line 67: Line 78:
 
* Add links into some code which exposes a recommendation as example?
 
* Add links into some code which exposes a recommendation as example?
 
* Could easily convert a Recommendation into an article / blog post / ... ("The EAC Series")
 
* Could easily convert a Recommendation into an article / blog post / ... ("The EAC Series")
 +
** MichaelS: "Pattern" idea. Example: EMF -- there is "good" usage and "bad" usage, how to share such patterns?
 +
** Example: Dealing with commands, dealing with Concurrency, dealing with Preferences, separation of UI / Non-UI
 +
** Pattern is also: Advantages / Disadvantages / When to apply
 +
* Boris: agree that it's good to flesh out these things, but not sure if Patterns is a good Next Step
 +
** One next step could be for AC members to blog about something
 +
** Martin: Just put together existing links to blogs / articles? '''AI Martin''' create Pattern page, '''AI Everyone''' link into pattern page
 +
* '''AI Michael''' flesh out the idea and remind of the Pattern idea
 +
** Boris: Started a Wiki page called [[Ninja]] for advanced debugging tips
  
 
=== Deadlocks, Jobs and Scheduling ===
 
=== Deadlocks, Jobs and Scheduling ===
 
* Examples: [https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=245573#c12 bug 245573 comment 12] (Dali JPA Tools Deadlock, John CC'd to EAC); {{bug|246840}} discussion about ISchedulingRule (saving project preferences)
 
* Examples: [https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=245573#c12 bug 245573 comment 12] (Dali JPA Tools Deadlock, John CC'd to EAC); {{bug|246840}} discussion about ISchedulingRule (saving project preferences)
 
* What is causing issues?
 
* What is causing issues?
** work performed during class loading (Activator.start()) - unknown context
+
** work performed during class loading (Activator.start()) - unknown context, can run at unpredictable times
** work performed in callbacks - unknown context
+
** work performed in callbacks - unknown context, avoid synchronous callbacks
** Job / SchedulingRule intermixed with Resources - cannot extend rules after the fact, need to know who locks what internally
+
** General recommendations: (e.g. avoid synchronous callbacks, avoid in Activator.start(), static initializers or Singleton getters) - a general recommendation could be to avoid performing work at unpredictable times, but that would recommend against lazy initialization in general
* What can we do to make the Platform safer for Concurrency?
+
*** Jeff: Split off e.g. '''top ten concurrency best practices'''
** Come up with some items in our [[Architecture Council/Top Ten Recommendations]] (e.g. avoid synchronous callbacks, avoid in Activator.start(), static initializers or Singleton getters) - a general recommendation could be to avoid performing work at unpredictable times, but that would recommend against lazy initialization in general
+
*** Boris: Fine with collecting more for now and then work on forking off
 +
* Martin: Concurrency should be an item for [[E4]]. How is EAC related to E4?
 +
** Michael: Ask the E4 team to present architectural ideas to the AC
 +
** Ed: There are E4 calls, this would create duplication
 +
** DougS: There is no "E4 Architecture" per se, it's separate initiatives
 +
 
 +
=== LGPL Works-with vs. Requires ===
 +
{{bug|246945}}
 +
 
 +
 
 +
= Deferred =
 +
== Concurrency ==
 +
* Top Ten Concurrency Best Practices?
 
** Does anybody have a well-working, consistent model on top of the current infrastructure?
 
** Does anybody have a well-working, consistent model on top of the current infrastructure?
 
** Totally new concurrency mechanism as part of [[E4]] ?
 
** Totally new concurrency mechanism as part of [[E4]] ?
Line 85: Line 116:
 
** Articles ? - John referenced the [http://www.eclipse.org/articles/Article-Resource-deltas/resource-deltas.html#1d resouce-deltas] article
 
** Articles ? - John referenced the [http://www.eclipse.org/articles/Article-Resource-deltas/resource-deltas.html#1d resouce-deltas] article
  
=== LGPL Works-with vs. Requires ===
 
{{bug|246945}}
 
  
 
=== How to start Releng? ===
 
=== How to start Releng? ===

Revision as of 12:19, 11 September 2008

Meeting Title: Architecture Council Monthly Meeting
Date & Time: Thursday September 11, 2008 at 1500 UTC / 0800 SFO / 1100 Ottawa / 1600 London / 1700 Berlin
Html.gifHTML | Ical.gifiCal
Dial-in: (+1) 613.287.8000 (Ottawa and international) or
866.362.7064 (toll-free North America)
passcode 464440#

Contents

Attendees

  • Sign up here (alphabetical by last name), since it's hard to catch all names during the call.
  • Signed-up: Chris Aniszczyk, John Arthorne, Wayne "Mad Dog" Beaton, Boris Bokowski, Eugene Chan, Brian Fitzpatrick, Philippe Mulet, Martin Oberhuber, Michael Scharf, August Schmidt, Darin Swanson, Thomas Watson, Darin Wright
  • Tentative: John Duimovich, David Williams (will join late, if my conflict ends early)
  • Regrets: Oliver Cole (standing meeting), John Graham(last minute client mtg), Richard Gronback (travelling), Mik Kersten (travelling), Markus Knauer (g-Eclipse tutorial), Andrew Overholt (meeting conflict), Gunnar Wagenknecht (city council meeting), John Wiegand (travelling)

Agenda / Notes

  • Feel free to edit, but not during the call!

Review of Action Items

  • Last meeting Architecture Council/Minutes August 14 2008#Action Items
  • Ok green.gif Boris to start Architecture Council/Top Ten Recommendations
  • Ok green.gif Martin to draft an E-Mail to eclipse.org-committers for review, inviting to put EAC on CC of bugs
  • Ok green.gif Martin to send E-Mail to EAC list as a reminder for "Architectural Walkthrough".
    • Mik to create initial "architectural walkthrough" material for mylyn. One more to follow before publicly announcing?
  • MichaelS to draft an E-Mail about the "plugin granularity" idea, searching for people to lead the effort
  • Ok green.gif Bjorn or Anne to add a "year of appointment" to members on the councils page
  • Ok green.gif Martin to propose alternate meeting scheme on the mailing list
  • Everyone to think about time commitments that can be made for "architectural things" at Eclipse (3 hours == 1 hr meeting + 2 hrs E-Mail and mentoring)
  • Everyone to propose new members on the mailing list
  • Ok green.gif Martin to create bugzilla bugs for the ISchedulingRule (bug 246840 and LGPL bug 246945 discussions

Administrative

  • Meeting Dates - 2nd thurs accepted by everyone
  • EAC and bugzilla, and the E-Mail to Committers
    • Accepted by everyone. There's not so much traffic yet, keep mailing list on for now.
    • Who wants to be a secret-keeper of the EAC user's bugzilla password? MichaelS
  • Architecture Council/Members and Mentors - is it accurate?
    • Who's mentoring Apogee, COSMOS, Aperi?
      • Wayne: There are several mentor-less projects; in the past, projects have picked a mentor themselves - kick them to pick a mentor
    • AI Wayne list mentor-less Technology projects; AI Other PMC's list mentor-less projects from their domain
    • AI Everyone link to their Bio or Blog from the person name on the Architecture Council/Members and Mentors page
  • Dormant Status Proposal:
    • Accepted by everyone. Mike needs to sign off changes in membership.
    • Martin will try to keep track of activity, but can't promise.
  • New Member Proposals:
    • Are we too big a crowd already? New Member Proposals?
    • Some ideas (from E4 mostly): Dave Carver, Tom Schindl, Scott Lewis, Konstantin Kommissarchik, Kevin McGuire, David Orme, Paul Webster, Paul Coltron
      • Michael: Too big a crowd for round tables, but big crowd makes sense for "breakout style" meetings
  • Google Calendar Bugs and Requests -- does anybody know how to report them?
    • Changing an event, "Dont send" does send notifications
    • Response from to mailing list invitation should track attendance of each member separately
    • Ed: It's good, people need reminders
    • Jeff: Meeting invite should have the call-in details in there, AI Martin add
  • Wayne: Welcome Gunnar Wagenknecht as Technology PMC representative to the Architecture Council

News from the Board (EMO)

  • We have board reps and EMO reps on the council (Mike, Bjorn, Jeff, Ed, zx, Mik and Doug Gaff; Wayne)
  • Would like to have a standing "news from the board" topic, since as mentors we should be top informed
  • Other channels (PlanetEclipse, Blog, Committers / Project-leads mailing list, ...) should work but 1st-hand is better
  • Do information channels work well?
    • Ed: told Mike that the information channels are not good enough yet
    • Wayne: Bjorn has been blogging heavily about changes in Dev process
    • Boris: Particularly when new rules are coming into effect, there needs to be an ML announcement
    • Jeff: Dev process change was in mid of vacation season
    • Jeff: Some discussions at the Board are confidential, but will take opportunity of this slot in the future
    • Ed: The IP issue is a good example for sharing discussions with the EAC (IP advisory committee)
    • Jeff: What's people's viewpoint on dual licensing? Where is the EPL not sufficient?
      • TomW: In Equinox Framework, would like to adopt more Apache
      • Martin: Dual-license is largely redundant (weaker license covers all)
      • Jeff: Being able to say that "Everything from Eclipse.org is EPL" is helpful
      • If somebody thinks that EPL is not sufficient for any reason, Jeff would like to know about it (and, make a CQ to Janet)

Top Ten Recommendations

  • Architecture Council/Top Ten Recommendations
  • More recommendations?
  • Add links into some code which exposes a recommendation as example?
  • Could easily convert a Recommendation into an article / blog post / ... ("The EAC Series")
    • MichaelS: "Pattern" idea. Example: EMF -- there is "good" usage and "bad" usage, how to share such patterns?
    • Example: Dealing with commands, dealing with Concurrency, dealing with Preferences, separation of UI / Non-UI
    • Pattern is also: Advantages / Disadvantages / When to apply
  • Boris: agree that it's good to flesh out these things, but not sure if Patterns is a good Next Step
    • One next step could be for AC members to blog about something
    • Martin: Just put together existing links to blogs / articles? AI Martin create Pattern page, AI Everyone link into pattern page
  • AI Michael flesh out the idea and remind of the Pattern idea
    • Boris: Started a Wiki page called Ninja for advanced debugging tips

Deadlocks, Jobs and Scheduling

  • Examples: bug 245573 comment 12 (Dali JPA Tools Deadlock, John CC'd to EAC); bug 246840 discussion about ISchedulingRule (saving project preferences)
  • What is causing issues?
    • work performed during class loading (Activator.start()) - unknown context, can run at unpredictable times
    • work performed in callbacks - unknown context, avoid synchronous callbacks
    • General recommendations: (e.g. avoid synchronous callbacks, avoid in Activator.start(), static initializers or Singleton getters) - a general recommendation could be to avoid performing work at unpredictable times, but that would recommend against lazy initialization in general
      • Jeff: Split off e.g. top ten concurrency best practices
      • Boris: Fine with collecting more for now and then work on forking off
  • Martin: Concurrency should be an item for E4. How is EAC related to E4?
    • Michael: Ask the E4 team to present architectural ideas to the AC
    • Ed: There are E4 calls, this would create duplication
    • DougS: There is no "E4 Architecture" per se, it's separate initiatives

LGPL Works-with vs. Requires

bug 246945


Deferred

Concurrency

  • Top Ten Concurrency Best Practices?
    • Does anybody have a well-working, consistent model on top of the current infrastructure?
    • Totally new concurrency mechanism as part of E4 ?
      • David Orme mentions DataBinding Realms and the Threads Considered Harmful blog which references Erlang message-based concurrence
      • Would it help to become more asynchronous under the hood, even if old APIs need to remain for compatibility?
      • Are there any other good known models for concurrency?
    • Better Javadoc ?
      • Example: ISchedulingRule.isConflicting() vs. ISchedulingRule.contains(), and how does it relate to RuleFactory and MultiRule?
    • Articles ? - John referenced the resouce-deltas article


How to start Releng?

  • Question from a new project: I am trying to create some update sites and build scripts for TmL and I am having some difficults to find some reference material to working with this. Do you have any idea where I can find a starter material to do that??
    • Bjorn, NickB & Denis Build Workshop 3: Build Hard With A Purpose but is that an answer for now? Current status?
    • Refer people to clone existing projects' releng? Which ones are good?
    • Refer to the PDE Build docs? But that's only half of the story?

Other Ideas for Discussion

  • Mentoring New Projects
    • Experiences? What could be improved?
    • Webpage improvements: more pre-canned content for new projects (like Sourceforge)?
  • Mentoring Galileo: What could be improved?
    • Running each project's unittests with full Galileo installed; especially interesting for Performance tests
    • Don't duplicate work done by the Planning Council
    • Integrated bug reporting: Mylyn is providing a bug/error/enhancement reporting facility that will provide a flexible and product-configurable mapping between features, bundles and bug trackers bug 212209 (Example: http://wiki.eclipse.org/images/8/86/Mylyn-Bug-Reporting-Example.jpg ). Do we want this for Galileo?
  • E4 now has bi-weekly calls -- won't discuss E4 on the EAC unless asked / invited
  • Eclipse Pain Points

Action Items

Next Meeting