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Difference between revisions of "Architecture Council/Minutes February 12 2009"

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{|border=1 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=1
 
{|border=1 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=1
 
| '''BIRT:'''
 
| '''BIRT:'''
| Wenfeng Li
+
| <strike>Wenfeng Li</strike>
| Gary Xue
+
| <strike>Gary Xue</strike>
 
|-
 
|-
 
| '''DTP:'''
 
| '''DTP:'''
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|-
 
|-
 
| '''DSDP:'''
 
| '''DSDP:'''
| Doug Gaff
+
| <strike>Doug Gaff</strike>
| Martin Oberhuber
+
| <strike>Martin Oberhuber</strike>
 
|-
 
|-
 
| '''Eclipse:'''
 
| '''Eclipse:'''
| Philippe Mulet
+
| <strike>Philippe Mulet</strike>
| Mike Wilson
+
| <strike>Mike Wilson</strike>
 
|-
 
|-
 
| '''Modeling:'''
 
| '''Modeling:'''
| Richard Gronback
+
| <strike>Richard Gronback</strike>
| Ed Merks
+
| <strike>Ed Merks</strike>
 
|-
 
|-
 
| '''RT:'''
 
| '''RT:'''
| Jeff McAffer
+
| <strike>Jeff McAffer</strike>
 
| Jochen Krause
 
| Jochen Krause
 
|-
 
|-
 
| '''STP:'''
 
| '''STP:'''
 
| Oisin Hurley
 
| Oisin Hurley
| Antoine Toulme
+
| <strike>Antoine Toulme</strike>
 
|-
 
|-
 
| '''Technology:'''
 
| '''Technology:'''
| Gunnar Wagenknecht
+
| <strike>Gunnar Wagenknecht</strike>
 
| Wayne Beaton
 
| Wayne Beaton
 
|-
 
|-
 
| '''Tools:'''
 
| '''Tools:'''
| John Duimovich
+
| Doug Schaefer
|
+
| <strike>Bjorn Freeman-Benson</strike>
 
|-
 
|-
 
| '''TPTP:'''
 
| '''TPTP:'''
 
| Eugene Chan
 
| Eugene Chan
| Oliver Cole<br/>Joanna Kubasta
+
| <strike>Oliver Cole</strike><br/><strike>Joanna Kubasta</strike>
 
|-
 
|-
 
| '''WTP:'''
 
| '''WTP:'''
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| Dave Carver
 
| Dave Carver
 
|}
 
|}
* '''Signed-up:'''  
+
 
* '''Regrets:'''  
+
* '''Signed-up:''' Wayne Beaton, Cédric Brun, David Carver, Eugene Chan, Linda Chan, Tim deBoer, Brian Fitzpatrick, Neil Hauge, Oisin Hurley, Mik Kersten, Jochen Krause, Andrew Overholt, Eric Rizzo, Doug Schaefer, Michael Scharf (late), Karsten Schmidt, Mark VandenBrink, David Williams, Darin Wright
* '''No-Show:'''  
+
* '''Regrets:''' Boris Bokowski, Doug Clarke, oliver cole, Sven Efftinge, Bjorn Freeman-Benson, Doug Gaff, John Graham, Martin Oberhuber, Mary Ruddy, Tom Schindl, Darin Swanson, McQ Wilson
 +
* '''No-Show:''' Chris Aniszczyk, John Arthorne, Adrian Colyer, Naci Dai, Richard Gronback, Markus Knauer, Wenfeng Li, Jeff McAffer, Ed Merks, Mike Milinkovich, Philippe Mulet, Georg Schmidt, Gunnar Wagenknecht, Tom Watson, Gary Xue
  
 
== Agenda / Notes ==
 
== Agenda / Notes ==
 
* '''Feel free to edit, but <font color="red">not during the call!</font>'''
 
* '''Feel free to edit, but <font color="red">not during the call!</font>'''
* <font color="red">I'm still working on this -- Andrew Overholt</font>
 
  
 
=== Review of Action Items ===
 
=== Review of Action Items ===
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* (''old'') '''Michael''' to draft an E-Mail about the "plugin granularity" idea, searching for people to lead the effort
 
* (''old'') '''Michael''' to draft an E-Mail about the "plugin granularity" idea, searching for people to lead the effort
 
* (''old'') '''Mik''' to create initial "architectural walkthrough" material for Mylyn -- 1 wiki page not too large, send link to the mailing list (committed until end January)
 
* (''old'') '''Mik''' to create initial "architectural walkthrough" material for Mylyn -- 1 wiki page not too large, send link to the mailing list (committed until end January)
* (''old'') '''Mike''' to inform everyone when the IPZilla Legal Closed Group is ready to use
+
* [[Image:Ok_green.gif]] '''Mike''' to inform everyone when the IPZilla Legal Closed Group is ready to use
 
* (''old'') '''All PMC's''' to encourage incubating grandfathered projects ask for a mentor (by [https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/enter_bug.cgi?product=Community&component=Architecture%20Council filing an AC bug])
 
* (''old'') '''All PMC's''' to encourage incubating grandfathered projects ask for a mentor (by [https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/enter_bug.cgi?product=Community&component=Architecture%20Council filing an AC bug])
 
* '''Dave Carver''' send links to Wiki pages which we might want to emulate for the AC Homepage
 
* '''Dave Carver''' send links to Wiki pages which we might want to emulate for the AC Homepage
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* '''Everyone''' review/edit the various [[Architecture Council]] wiki pages, particularly the [[Architecture Council/Ask the AC]] Panel/FAQ and [[Architecture Council/Links Collection]]. Add questions to the FAQ.
 
* '''Everyone''' review/edit the various [[Architecture Council]] wiki pages, particularly the [[Architecture Council/Ask the AC]] Panel/FAQ and [[Architecture Council/Links Collection]]. Add questions to the FAQ.
 
* [[Image:Ok_green.gif]] '''Martin''' to schedule [[Architecture Council/Minutes API Deprecation 20080122]] call
 
* [[Image:Ok_green.gif]] '''Martin''' to schedule [[Architecture Council/Minutes API Deprecation 20080122]] call
* [[Image:Ok_green.gif]] '''Martin''' to schedule [[Architecture Council/F2F EclipseCon 2009]] - Sunday 5pm-6pm
+
* [[Image:Ok_green.gif]] '''Martin''' to schedule [[Architecture Council/Meetings/March 22 F2F EclipseCon 2009]] - Sunday 5pm-6pm
 
** New [http://wiki.eclipse.org/Category:Architecture_Council Category markup] allows us to tag other (non-AC) pages such that they show up under AC
 
** New [http://wiki.eclipse.org/Category:Architecture_Council Category markup] allows us to tag other (non-AC) pages such that they show up under AC
 
** Better organize the AC homepage: collect feedback... '''AI Dave''' send links to other Wiki pages for review to check which ones we might want to emulate, also, everyone can make suggestions / create mock-up pages for review.
 
** Better organize the AC homepage: collect feedback... '''AI Dave''' send links to other Wiki pages for review to check which ones we might want to emulate, also, everyone can make suggestions / create mock-up pages for review.
Line 87: Line 87:
  
 
=== Administrative ===
 
=== Administrative ===
* '''New Members''': Linda Chan (Actuate, Bay Area, DTP), Sven Efftinge (new Strategic Member, itemis, northern Germany, TMF Lead)
+
* '''IP/Legal Discussions:''' IPZilla closed group is up.  In {{bug|214133}}, Martin asks whether having the link under the following areas of the portal is sufficient:
* New '''Dormant Members''' - see [[Architecture Council/Members and Mentors]]
+
* New [[Architecture Council/Templates]]
+
** AC Wiki pages are fairly complete now. Martin dumping his knowledge/E-Mail templates for others to use.
+
** '''AI Everyone''' review the Wiki pages and change anything unclear. Feel free to edit the Wiki!
+
** '''AI Andrew Overholt''' to chair next month's call (Feb 12)
+
* '''IP/Legal Discussions:''' IPZilla closed group is up, pending {{bug|214133}} for accessing it through the Portal
+
* '''PMC Representation''' on the AC - backup delegates, 1 attendee required
+
* '''Efficient Communications'''
+
** Many AC members are involved in very many things. Need to communicate efficiently, with low "data to noise ratio"
+
** We already have: Bugzilla on creation/close only with opt-in; [URGENT] tag; Doodle for attendance tracking/voting; Wiki for discussions; anything else we could improve?
+
** Goal should be that it is '''easy to track''' what we are doing without getting spammed, and '''get notified of urgent matters'''.
+
** Avoid sending response to a meeting invitation / out-of-office back to the list ([http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/eclipse.org-architecture-council/msg00815.html Mary], [http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/eclipse.org-architecture-council/msg00821.html Mark], [http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/eclipse.org-architecture-council/msg00820.html Eugene])
+
*** It's interesting that some others (IBM'ers) have responded privately to Martin (John A, Darin S, Tom W, Dave W, Kevin H)
+
** Note the [http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/eclipse.org-architecture-council/maillist.rss RSS Feed for the AC Mailing List]: helpful for referencing previous postings
+
** <font color="green">'''RESOLUTION:'''</font> AC is happy with current communication patterns.
+
  
=== News from the EMO & Councils ===
+
=== Summary ===
* December [http://www.eclipse.org/org/foundation/minutes.php Official Board Minutes] not yet done
+
** Doug Gaff [http://eclipse-committer-reps.blogspot.com/2008/12/december-2008-board-meeting.html summarizes the december board meeting] on the Committer Reps Blog
+
* '''Mik: Are the EPP distributions "products"?'''
+
** {{bug|261365}} Board says No. No clear actions out of that, but it should be reflected on the download pages.
+
** McQ: It doesn't matter what we label the EPP packages as... users just treat them as such, especially wrt JDT
+
** Much Platform/UI bug triage work goes into things that should really be associated with other projects: a large portion of bugs doesn't have value!
+
** Can we label stuff as "limited support" ?
+
** Can we do something like Red Hat (with RHEL / Fedora distros)?
+
** Jeff: Better highlight that there are supported offerings? Make it clearer what the support level is?
+
** In Linux, are bugs reported against the distro or against upstream projects?
+
** Martin: "Report a bug" wizard?
+
** Boris: Why isn't there a "Services" company interested in creating a distro with a "report a bug" wizard and make money out of that?
+
** Jeff: Make it clear in a positive way that stuff is available FOR FREE... and some bugs may be closed "WONTFIX"
+
** Firefox and Openoffice are also treated as "products"...
+
** Martin: "Expectation" discussion (to be held at planning council?) vs. technical "Low quality bugs" discussion
+
*** Mik: Help > Report this bug ... button in every distro that includes Mylyn been doing more harm than good so far
+
*** Kevin McGuire wanted to get bug auto-reported against Distro rather than component?
+
*** Boris: Platform UI tries to redirect bugs properly, not too big an issue for them
+
** Martin: Windows 7 "Report a enhancement request with THIS component"
+
*** ... they set the expecatation like "We won't respond but your comment is valuable"
+
*** Mik: new "report bug" wizard allows to select any feature that has UI
+
*** Boris: "report bug" wizard could show a webpage with (paid) ads of companies for commercial support... commercial products could replace that by their commercial support page
+
*** Mik: Mylyn has an extension point for registering commercial support
+
*** '''AI Mik to propose a date for demoing the feature at EclipseCon'''
+
*** Doug Gaff (added after the meeting): I just want to summarize this by reminding folks that the EMO committed to 1) indicating that EPP packages are community support only and 2) providing links to Vendors that offer supported, commercial distros. Beyond this, it's in the community's hands.
+
* [[StAC 090115 Minutes]] meeting for funding release train activities: following this meeting
+
** Based on [[StAC 081028 Minutes]] SWOT analysis
+
  
=== New Topics ===
+
Martin was unable to attend, so Wayne initiated the call.
* '''EclipseCon''' - AC meeting on Sunday before the conference (Mar 22) afternoon
+
** Proposed StAC meeting 3pm-5pm including the AC, PC and RC; but we have some topics (like mentorship) not so interesting for the other councils
+
** Official [[Architecture Council/F2F EclipseCon 2009]] from 5pm-6pm, inofficial afterwards (Program Committee get-together after 6pm); want to have pizza dinner
+
** [[Architecture Council/Ask the AC]] Panel: many questions are important for ourselves to understand and answer consistently
+
  
* McQ - '''[http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/eclipse-pmc/msg00556.html Eclipse Adoption] and API Deprecation Policy'''
+
BIRT project was not represented on the call. Neither was the Eclipse project; MikeQ dropped off due to the late start.
** Platform clients have problems updating to newer Eclipse versions, in spite of remaining binary API compatible. Do others see this too?
+
 
** How can inevitable migration effort (e.g. due to fixing semantic errors in API) be eased?
+
Status of Martin and Michael's deliverables unknown.
*** Tagging change / tools to detect change
+
 
** How can we help clients become API-clean, and how can we help protect investment where API cleanliness is impossible?
+
Mik has not been able to do the architectural walkthrough of Mylyn. We very briefly discussed the format of the document and lamented the fact that we don't currently have a template to base it on. The Mylyn document will end up being the template.
*** Tools to report usage of non-API even in closed source
+
 
*** Allow clients to contribute unittests for code where they (have to) leverage internal non-API, in order to detect breakage early
+
Most of the top-level projects report that their incubating projects are sufficiently mentored. The Technology and Tools projects still have many unmentored projects. Doug Schaefer, representing the Tools PMC, and Wayne, representing the Technology PMC, agreed to continue efforts to pressure projects into finding mentors.
** How can we help clients detect usage of obsoleted features, and migrate to the new replacement feature more easily?
+
 
*** API Deprecation Policy / Soft deprecation tag
+
Dave promises to send out links of sample pages to base AC pages on.
** Is it reasonable to expect API-clean clients?
+
 
** Dave Williams: Semantic differences are hard; in WTP, there are tools for scanning code and reporting back; would like to see PDE API Tools move into usage scanning as well
+
Mik will add Mylyn Bug Reporting Demo to EclipseCon meeting when agenda available.
** McQ: Want scanners on beyond-bundle-granularity to report usage. Should we do that between projects? Setup a database for the information?
+
 
** Jeff: Low-fidelity / high-fidelity analyzers of usage
+
We discussed access to the IPZilla legal questions channel from the Portal. Our belief is that many/most committers do not make common use of the portal and so would not find this channel. Dave Carver suggested that we include a link from the Wiki. We discussed that, since IPZilla is only accessible by committers, this is probably okay.
** Martin: are we softening the "You must be API clean" story?
+
 
** McQ: we should still be talking about "you must be API clean", but how can we live with reality? API does change. Take the low-level SWT event mechanism for instance. Can we tag non-API as "you're OK to use it"?
+
We reviewed the EclipseCon AC meeting timing. We agreed that pizza sounds good.
** DaveW: at this point, we should be collecting information and then decide on what to do with the information.
+
 
** Dave Carver: often, there is no way doing something without going "internal". How many people have actually requested something become API?
+
It was proposed that we cancel the March 11th AC meeting since we'll be meeting two weeks later at EclipseCon anyway. Group opted to keep the meeting.
** Report will also be good to find out what non-API should be made API
+
** McQ: Formal deprecation policy?
+
*** Jeff: Setup another call for the deprecation thing? Start up simple and start a scanner for all of Eclipse.org
+
*** Darin: API Tooling currently working on scanners to discover references between plugins, generating report or dumping into a DB
+
  
 
=== Old items ===
 
=== Old items ===
  
 
* See also [[Architecture Council/Open Issues]] for overflow items that were not discussed
 
* See also [[Architecture Council/Open Issues]] for overflow items that were not discussed
 
== Action Items ==
 
* (''old'') '''Martin''' to follow up with the m2eclipse and IAM projects regarding duplication
 
* (''old'') '''Martin''' to follow up on Architecture Diagrams idea
 
* (''old'') '''Michael''' to flesh out the Patterns idea and remind the EAC -- started [[Architecture Council/Top Ten Recommendations#Design Patterns]], backed by EclipseCon tutorial proposals
 
** While these show how well-known GoF patterns are applied in Eclipse, Michael's idea was more to find and describe new patterns which are specific to Eclipse
 
* (''old'') '''Michael''' to draft an E-Mail about the "plugin granularity" idea, searching for people to lead the effort
 
* (''old'') '''Mik''' to create initial "architectural walkthrough" material for mylyn -- 1 wiki page not too large, send link to the mailing list (committed until end January)
 
* (''old'') '''Mike''' to inform everyone when the IPZilla Legal Closed Group is ready to use
 
* (''old'') '''All PMC's''' to encourage incubating grandfathered projects ask for a mentor (by [https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/enter_bug.cgi?product=Community&component=Architecture%20Council filing an AC bug])
 
* '''Dave Carver''' send links to Wiki pages which we might want to emulate for the AC Homepage
 
* '''Mik''' to propose a date for demoing the Mylyn "report a bug" feature
 
* '''Everyone''' review/edit the various [[Architecture Council]] wiki pages, particularly the [[Architecture Council/Ask the AC]] Panel/FAQ and [[Architecture Council/Links collection]]. Add questions to the FAQ.
 
* '''Martin''' to schedule [[Architecture Council/Minutes API Deprecation 20080122]] call
 
* '''Martin''' to schedule [[Architecture Council/F2F EclipseCon 2009]] - Sunday 5pm-6pm
 
  
 
== Next Meeting ==
 
== Next Meeting ==
* [[Architecture Council]] call on [[Architecture Council/Minutes March 11 2009|Thursday, March 11, 2009 ]]
+
* [[StAC 090225 Minutes]]
 +
* [[Architecture Council/Meetings/March 12 2009]]
  
 
[[Category:Architecture Council Meeting Minutes]]
 
[[Category:Architecture Council Meeting Minutes]]

Latest revision as of 21:01, 12 March 2009

Meeting Title: Architecture Council Monthly Meeting
Date & Time: Thursday February 12, 2009 at 1600 UTC / 0800 SFO / 1100 Ottawa / 1600 London / 1700 Berlin
Html.gifHTML | Ical.gifiCal
Dial-in: (+1) 613.287.8000 (Ottawa and international) or
866.362.7064 (toll-free North America)
passcode 464440#

Attendees

  • Use the Doodle Attendance Tracking Poll to confirm attendance or send regrets for this meeting. See this message for how to use it. All AC Members are invited.
  • PMC Reps please confirm attendance or list your delegate below. Every PMC is required to name a primary and backup delegate, and to ensure that one delegate attends the meeting.
BIRT: Wenfeng Li Gary Xue
DTP: Brian Fitzpatrick Linda Chan
DSDP: Doug Gaff Martin Oberhuber
Eclipse: Philippe Mulet Mike Wilson
Modeling: Richard Gronback Ed Merks
RT: Jeff McAffer Jochen Krause
STP: Oisin Hurley Antoine Toulme
Technology: Gunnar Wagenknecht Wayne Beaton
Tools: Doug Schaefer Bjorn Freeman-Benson
TPTP: Eugene Chan Oliver Cole
Joanna Kubasta
WTP: Tim deBoer Dave Carver
  • Signed-up: Wayne Beaton, Cédric Brun, David Carver, Eugene Chan, Linda Chan, Tim deBoer, Brian Fitzpatrick, Neil Hauge, Oisin Hurley, Mik Kersten, Jochen Krause, Andrew Overholt, Eric Rizzo, Doug Schaefer, Michael Scharf (late), Karsten Schmidt, Mark VandenBrink, David Williams, Darin Wright
  • Regrets: Boris Bokowski, Doug Clarke, oliver cole, Sven Efftinge, Bjorn Freeman-Benson, Doug Gaff, John Graham, Martin Oberhuber, Mary Ruddy, Tom Schindl, Darin Swanson, McQ Wilson
  • No-Show: Chris Aniszczyk, John Arthorne, Adrian Colyer, Naci Dai, Richard Gronback, Markus Knauer, Wenfeng Li, Jeff McAffer, Ed Merks, Mike Milinkovich, Philippe Mulet, Georg Schmidt, Gunnar Wagenknecht, Tom Watson, Gary Xue

Agenda / Notes

  • Feel free to edit, but not during the call!

Review of Action Items

  • Last meeting Architecture Council/Minutes January 15 2009#Action Items
  • (old) Martin to follow up with the m2eclipse and IAM projects regarding duplication
  • (old) Martin to follow up on Architecture Diagrams idea
  • (old) Michael to flesh out the Patterns idea and remind the EAC -- started Architecture Council/Top Ten Recommendations#Design Patterns, backed by EclipseCon tutorial proposals
    • While these show how well-known GoF patterns are applied in Eclipse, Michael's idea was more to find and describe new patterns which are specific to Eclipse
  • (old) Michael to draft an E-Mail about the "plugin granularity" idea, searching for people to lead the effort
  • (old) Mik to create initial "architectural walkthrough" material for Mylyn -- 1 wiki page not too large, send link to the mailing list (committed until end January)
  • Ok green.gif Mike to inform everyone when the IPZilla Legal Closed Group is ready to use
  • (old) All PMC's to encourage incubating grandfathered projects ask for a mentor (by filing an AC bug)
  • Dave Carver send links to Wiki pages which we might want to emulate for the AC Homepage
  • Mik to propose a date for demoing the Mylyn "report a bug" feature
  • Everyone review/edit the various Architecture Council wiki pages, particularly the Architecture Council/Ask the AC Panel/FAQ and Architecture Council/Links Collection. Add questions to the FAQ.
  • Ok green.gif Martin to schedule Architecture Council/Minutes API Deprecation 20080122 call
  • Ok green.gif Martin to schedule Architecture Council/Meetings/March 22 F2F EclipseCon 2009 - Sunday 5pm-6pm
    • New Category markup allows us to tag other (non-AC) pages such that they show up under AC
    • Better organize the AC homepage: collect feedback... AI Dave send links to other Wiki pages for review to check which ones we might want to emulate, also, everyone can make suggestions / create mock-up pages for review.
  • Still open items moved to #Action Items

Administrative

  • IP/Legal Discussions: IPZilla closed group is up. In bug 214133, Martin asks whether having the link under the following areas of the portal is sufficient:

Summary

Martin was unable to attend, so Wayne initiated the call.

BIRT project was not represented on the call. Neither was the Eclipse project; MikeQ dropped off due to the late start.

Status of Martin and Michael's deliverables unknown.

Mik has not been able to do the architectural walkthrough of Mylyn. We very briefly discussed the format of the document and lamented the fact that we don't currently have a template to base it on. The Mylyn document will end up being the template.

Most of the top-level projects report that their incubating projects are sufficiently mentored. The Technology and Tools projects still have many unmentored projects. Doug Schaefer, representing the Tools PMC, and Wayne, representing the Technology PMC, agreed to continue efforts to pressure projects into finding mentors.

Dave promises to send out links of sample pages to base AC pages on.

Mik will add Mylyn Bug Reporting Demo to EclipseCon meeting when agenda available.

We discussed access to the IPZilla legal questions channel from the Portal. Our belief is that many/most committers do not make common use of the portal and so would not find this channel. Dave Carver suggested that we include a link from the Wiki. We discussed that, since IPZilla is only accessible by committers, this is probably okay.

We reviewed the EclipseCon AC meeting timing. We agreed that pizza sounds good.

It was proposed that we cancel the March 11th AC meeting since we'll be meeting two weeks later at EclipseCon anyway. Group opted to keep the meeting.

Old items

Next Meeting