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Difference between revisions of "Architecture Council/Meetings/September 8 2016"
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| − | | Thursday [[ | + | | Thursday [[September 8, 2016]] at [http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=Eclipse+AC+Montly+Meeting&iso=20160908T11&p1=188&ah=1 1100 Ottawa] <br>[[Image:Html.gif]][http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=g30r6idsq3rsufe2j3t6k0l0g4%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=Canada/Toronto HTML] | [[Image:Ical.gif]][http://www.google.com/calendar/ical/g30r6idsq3rsufe2j3t6k0l0g4%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics iCal] |
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| Dial-in: | | Dial-in: | ||
| Line 26: | Line 26: | ||
* Last meeting: [[Architecture Council/Meetings/August 11 2016]] -- open actions see [[#Action_Items]] | * Last meeting: [[Architecture Council/Meetings/August 11 2016]] -- open actions see [[#Action_Items]] | ||
| − | === | + | === Dani: UI Guidelines === |
| + | * Bring the UI Working Group to life again, promote the UI Guidelines (came up recently on IDE-Dev) | ||
| + | ** UI Working Group was very silent recently; | ||
| + | ** [[User Interface Guidelines]] are still 70% valid, except maybe Theming and trend to flat UI | ||
| + | ** Most Projects won't know the Guidelines at all | ||
| + | *** Eike: Do we know about user complaints regarding UI inconsistencies ? | ||
| + | ** Architectural issue: Some people had to redefine commands, since they were not define at the right layer -- | ||
| + | *** Example: Some JDT commands had to be redefined in CDT | ||
| + | ** Martin: UI Guidelines talk about low-level details ... but user complaints are mostly about high-level: awkward workflows, complexity, over-loaded menus (eg 45 items in an editor context menu !) | ||
| + | *** Hard to achieve in an Open Framework ... what do others think ? | ||
| + | *** Exactly the same compmlaints from Science ... things feel clunky, unintuitive ... click count, click distance | ||
| + | *** Martin: Extend the concepts of Theming and Capabilities, such that Product Builders have more control over workflows ? | ||
| + | *** Jay: Exactly this is driving Design Thinking in Science ... moving away from the IDE and more towards RCPs ... desire to hide things, make workflows more natural, more web-like | ||
| + | *** Eike: Tools like Thunderbird, MS Office, ... can customize the UI by dragging buttons etc, why isn't that possible in the Eclipse IDE ? | ||
| + | *** Mickael: {{bug|477670}} is open for making toolbar customization easier by right-click: one piece in the puzzle, but maybe a step in the right direction ... a patch was submitted but was not good enough | ||
| + | *** Doug: Turns off many toolbar items on every new workspace, would be nice saving this as a global config - Dani: would be nice | ||
| + | ** Martin: On a higher level - what to do with a UI Working Group, how to find resources for specific problem solutions, how to come up with an architecture to address the "big picture" problems | ||
| + | *** Dani: Mike Milinkovich could hire a Designer for FEEP ... could consider looking over the current design and bring it up to date | ||
| + | *** Doug: "Quality of the IDE" really needs to go into the culture of projects .. would like to see those kind of things reflected in the UI Guidelines | ||
| + | *** Jay would be happy jumping in as a Chair of a "New UI Working Group"; Doug also interested in driving this | ||
| + | **** Want this as a member group, or prefer industry leaders jump in ? Need to pick a path, to bootstrap it (via Bug ticket) | ||
| + | **** Doug recommends starting as a committee on the AC (rather than an entire Working Group), start with phone calls, hangouts etc (that's also how the Science WG started out) | ||
| + | **** '''AI Dani''' could send a note to the "old" UI mailing list, and ask Mike about funding for FEEP Design | ||
| + | **** '''AI Doug''' to start with a note to the Mailing List, then schedule calls. Jay is OK since already driving one WG. | ||
| − | + | === Jay: Web UI Strategies === | |
| − | === | + | * Where is Eclipse in terms of Web UIs - time for a Strategy around Che, RAP, Scout - is Eclipse as a whole missing the boat in terms of going to the Web ? |
| + | * There is pressure on Science projects going to the Web .. but without Guidance from the AC, projects are lost | ||
| + | * How many users use Scout, RAP, ... in the RCP space ? | ||
| + | ** Any guidelines like ... if you use Virgo, look at React, if you have an RCP look at RAP ... | ||
| + | ** Projects '''are''' going to migrate, how could we help | ||
| + | * Doug: There's so many web frameworks out there, why create another one ? | ||
| + | * Martin: Having a hard time thinking about "the guideline that fits everyone" ... probably rather a blog by somebody who went through the process evaluating options and writing that down ? | ||
| + | ** '''AI Jay''' will put his thoughts on the Wiki as a start for discussion | ||
| − | * ''' | + | === Eike: F2F at EclipseCon === |
| − | + | * '''AI Eike''' ask '''AI Wayne''' if he could organize some something (Eike, Dani, Doug at least). | |
| − | + | ** '''Done''': Wayne will post infos to the mailing list... | |
| − | + | ||
| − | * ''' | + | |
| − | == | + | === Dani: PC Call yesteray === |
| + | * Refer to David Williams's Notes | ||
| + | * Platform make a very big N&N, much more than other projects; will look at small updates for "dot.[123]" updates | ||
| + | * Talked about a new model for "Post Release / Starting New Train" - will keep existing projects to start and remove them later (note been sent on cross-platform) | ||
| − | + | === Release vs. Product Naming === | |
| − | * | + | * Naming of Releases and IDE Product (Wayne has {{bug|493490}} open on that) |
| − | * | + | ** Q: is there any value changing from "Eclipse IDE" to anything else ? |
| − | *(' | + | ** Maybe split the discussion into a couple separate bugs ? |
| − | * | + | ** Is there still a need brainstorming, or should there just be a vote (or dictator)? |
| + | *** Wayne: Perhaps what's missing is simply a product manager (Ian did a survey shortly before Neon, some terms are already out there). There is value in us talking about things in a consistent way. | ||
| + | *** Need a leader to come | ||
| + | |||
| + | === Wayne: Simplifying the Release Process === | ||
| + | * {{bug|}} many projects move quickly; require projects do a proper review "once in a while" eg yearly, but allow them release much quicker | ||
| − | |||
== Attendees == | == Attendees == | ||
| Line 56: | Line 91: | ||
|- | |- | ||
| '''BIRT:''' | | '''BIRT:''' | ||
| − | | Wenfeng Li | + | | <strike>Wenfeng Li</strike> |
| − | | Wenbin He | + | | <strike>Wenbin He</strike> |
|- | |- | ||
| '''DTP:''' | | '''DTP:''' | ||
| − | | Brian Payton | + | | <strike>Brian Payton</strike> |
| − | | Linda Chan | + | | <strike>Linda Chan</strike> |
|- | |- | ||
| '''Eclipse:''' | | '''Eclipse:''' | ||
| Dani Megert | | Dani Megert | ||
| − | | Mike Wilson | + | | <strike>Mike Wilson</strike> |
|- | |- | ||
| '''Modeling:''' | | '''Modeling:''' | ||
| − | | Ed Merks | + | | <strike>Ed Merks</strike> |
| Cédric Brun<br>Eike Stepper | | Cédric Brun<br>Eike Stepper | ||
|- | |- | ||
| '''Mylyn:''' | | '''Mylyn:''' | ||
| − | | Steffen Pingel | + | | <strike>Steffen Pingel</strike> |
| − | | Mik Kersten | + | | <strike>Mik Kersten</strike> |
|- | |- | ||
| '''RT:''' | | '''RT:''' | ||
| Christian Campo | | Christian Campo | ||
| − | | | + | | <strike>Tom Watson</strike> |
|- | |- | ||
| '''SOA:''' | | '''SOA:''' | ||
| − | | Adrian Mos | + | | <strike>Adrian Mos</strike> |
| − | | Marc Dutoo | + | | <strike>Marc Dutoo</strike> |
|- | |- | ||
| '''Technology:''' | | '''Technology:''' | ||
| − | | Gunnar Wagenknecht | + | | <strike>Gunnar Wagenknecht</strike> |
| Wayne Beaton | | Wayne Beaton | ||
|- | |- | ||
| Line 92: | Line 127: | ||
|- | |- | ||
| '''WTP:''' | | '''WTP:''' | ||
| − | | Chuck Bridgham | + | | <strike>Chuck Bridgham</strike> |
| − | | Neil Hauge | + | | <strike>Neil Hauge</strike> |
|- | |- | ||
| '''LocationTech:''' | | '''LocationTech:''' | ||
| − | | Jim Hughes | + | | <strike>Jim Hughes</strike> |
| | | | ||
|- | |- | ||
| '''IoT:''' | | '''IoT:''' | ||
| − | | Julien Vermillard | + | | <strike>Julien Vermillard</strike> |
| | | | ||
|} | |} | ||
| Line 106: | Line 141: | ||
===All Attendees=== | ===All Attendees=== | ||
| + | * '''In attendance:''' Wayne Beaton, Jay Billings, Cedric Brun, Christian Campo, Mickael Istria, Alex Kurtakov, Marc-Andre Laperle, Dani Megert, Alexander Nyssen, Martin O, Doug Schaefer, Eike Stepper, Krum Tsvetkov | ||
| − | * '''Regrets:''' | + | * '''Regrets:''' Jonas Helming, Martin Lippert, Adrian Mos, Denis Roy, Matthias Sohn, Gunnar Wagenknecht |
| − | + | ||
| − | + | ||
<!-- | <!-- | ||
Revision as of 12:20, 8 September 2016
| Meeting Title: | Architecture Council Monthly Meeting |
| Date & Time: | Thursday September 8, 2016 at 1100 Ottawa  HTML |  iCal
|
| Dial-in: | Let's use the Foundation's Asterisk setup for this call:
Participant conference extension: 701 then enter pin: 51968
|
Contents
Agenda / Notes
- Feel free to edit, but not during the call!
- Last meeting: Architecture Council/Meetings/August 11 2016 -- open actions see #Action_Items
Dani: UI Guidelines
- Bring the UI Working Group to life again, promote the UI Guidelines (came up recently on IDE-Dev)
- UI Working Group was very silent recently;
- User Interface Guidelines are still 70% valid, except maybe Theming and trend to flat UI
- Most Projects won't know the Guidelines at all
- Eike: Do we know about user complaints regarding UI inconsistencies ?
- Architectural issue: Some people had to redefine commands, since they were not define at the right layer --
- Example: Some JDT commands had to be redefined in CDT
- Martin: UI Guidelines talk about low-level details ... but user complaints are mostly about high-level: awkward workflows, complexity, over-loaded menus (eg 45 items in an editor context menu !)
- Hard to achieve in an Open Framework ... what do others think ?
- Exactly the same compmlaints from Science ... things feel clunky, unintuitive ... click count, click distance
- Martin: Extend the concepts of Theming and Capabilities, such that Product Builders have more control over workflows ?
- Jay: Exactly this is driving Design Thinking in Science ... moving away from the IDE and more towards RCPs ... desire to hide things, make workflows more natural, more web-like
- Eike: Tools like Thunderbird, MS Office, ... can customize the UI by dragging buttons etc, why isn't that possible in the Eclipse IDE ?
- Mickael: bug 477670 is open for making toolbar customization easier by right-click: one piece in the puzzle, but maybe a step in the right direction ... a patch was submitted but was not good enough
- Doug: Turns off many toolbar items on every new workspace, would be nice saving this as a global config - Dani: would be nice
- Martin: On a higher level - what to do with a UI Working Group, how to find resources for specific problem solutions, how to come up with an architecture to address the "big picture" problems
- Dani: Mike Milinkovich could hire a Designer for FEEP ... could consider looking over the current design and bring it up to date
- Doug: "Quality of the IDE" really needs to go into the culture of projects .. would like to see those kind of things reflected in the UI Guidelines
- Jay would be happy jumping in as a Chair of a "New UI Working Group"; Doug also interested in driving this
- Want this as a member group, or prefer industry leaders jump in ? Need to pick a path, to bootstrap it (via Bug ticket)
- Doug recommends starting as a committee on the AC (rather than an entire Working Group), start with phone calls, hangouts etc (that's also how the Science WG started out)
- AI Dani could send a note to the "old" UI mailing list, and ask Mike about funding for FEEP Design
- AI Doug to start with a note to the Mailing List, then schedule calls. Jay is OK since already driving one WG.
Jay: Web UI Strategies
- Where is Eclipse in terms of Web UIs - time for a Strategy around Che, RAP, Scout - is Eclipse as a whole missing the boat in terms of going to the Web ?
- There is pressure on Science projects going to the Web .. but without Guidance from the AC, projects are lost
- How many users use Scout, RAP, ... in the RCP space ?
- Any guidelines like ... if you use Virgo, look at React, if you have an RCP look at RAP ...
- Projects are going to migrate, how could we help
- Doug: There's so many web frameworks out there, why create another one ?
- Martin: Having a hard time thinking about "the guideline that fits everyone" ... probably rather a blog by somebody who went through the process evaluating options and writing that down ?
- AI Jay will put his thoughts on the Wiki as a start for discussion
Eike: F2F at EclipseCon
- AI Eike ask AI Wayne if he could organize some something (Eike, Dani, Doug at least).
- Done: Wayne will post infos to the mailing list...
Dani: PC Call yesteray
- Refer to David Williams's Notes
- Platform make a very big N&N, much more than other projects; will look at small updates for "dot.[123]" updates
- Talked about a new model for "Post Release / Starting New Train" - will keep existing projects to start and remove them later (note been sent on cross-platform)
Release vs. Product Naming
- Naming of Releases and IDE Product (Wayne has bug 493490 open on that)
- Q: is there any value changing from "Eclipse IDE" to anything else ?
- Maybe split the discussion into a couple separate bugs ?
- Is there still a need brainstorming, or should there just be a vote (or dictator)?
- Wayne: Perhaps what's missing is simply a product manager (Ian did a survey shortly before Neon, some terms are already out there). There is value in us talking about things in a consistent way.
- Need a leader to come
Wayne: Simplifying the Release Process
- bug many projects move quickly; require projects do a proper review "once in a while" eg yearly, but allow them release much quicker
Attendees
All AC Members are invited.
- PMC Reps please confirm attendance or list your delegate below. Every PMC is required to name a primary and backup delegate, and to ensure that one delegate attends the meeting.
| BIRT: | |
|
| DTP: | |
|
| Eclipse: | Dani Megert | |
| Modeling: | |
Cédric Brun Eike Stepper |
| Mylyn: | |
|
| RT: | Christian Campo | |
| SOA: | |
|
| Technology: | |
Wayne Beaton |
| Tools: | Doug Schaefer | |
| WTP: | |
|
| LocationTech: | |
|
| IoT: | |
All Attendees
- In attendance: Wayne Beaton, Jay Billings, Cedric Brun, Christian Campo, Mickael Istria, Alex Kurtakov, Marc-Andre Laperle, Dani Megert, Alexander Nyssen, Martin O, Doug Schaefer, Eike Stepper, Krum Tsvetkov
- Regrets: Jonas Helming, Martin Lippert, Adrian Mos, Denis Roy, Matthias Sohn, Gunnar Wagenknecht