Linux Distributions Project IRC Meeting 17.01.2007
<overholt> let's go around and introduce ourselves for those that don't know each other
<overholt> overholt: Andrew Overholt, Red Hat, Toronto, Canada, Fedora
<scsibear> i'll start
<rcjsuen> let's start alphabetically from the irc channel list
<scsibear> rcjsuen: good idea
<overholt> AhtiK: ?
<rcjsuen> Well, maybe he's not here, he's one of the 11 students for gsoc 2k6 and was mentored by pombreda, working on word wrap
<overholt> great. benny`work is up next
<overholt> so you were a SoC student, AhtiK? glad you could make it. Where are you located?
<benny`work> benny: Benjamin Muskalla, working as independant software engenieer in germany, for the last year: contributor of eclipse and now wanna improve eclipse on linux systems
<AhtiK> My real name is Ahti Kitsik and I'm a software developer, as one might guess :) From Estonia, Europe. As rcjsuen mentioned, participated in google summer of code project. Now I'm running a little software dev company trying to write things for eclipse RCP and a bit of web.
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<overholt> AhtiK: awesome. nice to meet you
<AhtiK> and a huge fan of Gentoo :)
<benny`work> we are all gentoo guys ;)
<overholt> benny`work: you're a Gentoo guy as well, right?
<benny`work> most :D
<overholt> doko: you're up next
<doko> Matthias Klose, packaging various stuff for Debian and Ubuntu, including some adventures with eclipse, initially interested in pydev
<overholt> cool. is ijuma around?
<rcjsuen> He was just talking on #eclipse like not 15 minutes ago.
<overholt> well, if he's not around, we can just skip him
<ijuma> overholt: sorry, I'm idling, but am not going to be available for most of the meeting.
<overholt> ijuma: ah, that's okay
<overholt> klee: please briefly introduce yourself
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<overholt> ifoox: please briefly introduce yourself and your interest here
<ifoox> My name is Igor Foox
<ifoox> I work for Red Hat, part time currently
<ifoox> I've been working with andrew and ben on various packaging-related stuff for the past couple of years
<overholt> thanks, ifoox. perhaps klee is away from his desk. man-di2?
<ifoox> I'm also writing a specfile editor for RPMs, and hopefully a full blown RPM plugin (soon)
<man-di2> man-di2, Michael Koch from germany, working as J2ME developer, being a Debian developer and working on some java stuff including Eclipse for Debian
<klee> Kyu Lee, working with overholt now as an intern, interested in / working on some eclipse plugins,,
<overholt> thanks, man-di2. mjw?
<mjw> mjw: Mark Wielaard. From the Netherlands. GNU Classpath hacker, gcj contributor, Debian/Fedora user and eclipse observer :)
<overholt> thanks, Mark. nichoj ?
<overholt> nichoj_work: you around? perhaps you're waiting for the scheduled time. if so, we'll just fill you in then.
<overholt> pombreda: ?
<nichoj_work> Joshua Nichols, project lead for the Gentoo/Java project. packages Eclipse and other developer tools, in addition to maintaining the general Java infrastructure on Gentoo
<overholt> oh, cool
<overholt> awesome! glad to have you here, nichoj.
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<tromey> tromey: Tom Tromey, from US, works at Red Hat, gcj/classpath hacker
<overholt> thanks for coming, Tom. rcjsuen: scsibear: ?
<rcjsuen> rcjsuen: Hi, I'm Remy Chi Jian Suen, an undergraduate student at the University of Waterloo in Canada. I was a part of GSOC 2006 doing a Java implementation of the BitTorrent protocol so that ECF/UM can transfer files through BT. I'm now a committer on the ECF project. I use Gentoo.
<scsibear> scsibear: Ben Konrath. I work for Red Hat and my primary job there is packaging the Eclipse SDK for Fedora and Red Hat Enterprise Linux. Right now I'm working remotely from Kitchener-Waterloo (~100km from Toronto, ON Canada).
<overholt> great, so now we all know each other :)
<overholt> let's get a report on the packaging status of Eclipse stuff in the various distros
<overholt> nichoj_work: you go first
<nichoj_work> latest version we have is 3.2.1 right now
<nichoj_work> we're using most of the patches from fedora
<overholt> nichoj_work: cool. any other plugins?
<nichoj_work> I personally haven't had the time to look at how you guys have been doing plugins much
<overholt> fair enouch
<scsibear> nichoj_work: does gentoo have cvs? if, so could you add a link to the eclipse packages on the linux distros dev wiki?
<nichoj_work> like, when I looked at the phpeclipse example, I couldn't figure out where some of the scripts were coming
<scsibear> nichoj_work: i'd like to check out which patches you guys are carrying.
<overholt> so getting a common way of building is important
<nichoj_work> scsibear, oh, sure
<nichoj_work> where was that located again?
<scsibear> nichoj_work: http://wiki.eclipse.org/index.php/Linux_Distributions_Project
<overholt> alright. man-di2: doko: how's Debian these days? what about Ubuntu?
<nichoj_work> scsibear, thanks. I'll try to get that updated later today
<man-di2> doko did most all work lately so best he answers
<doko> debian and ubuntu share the packaging (besides build-depending on xulrunner/firefox)
<overholt> 3.2.1 (SDK)?
<doko> the patches are not yet merged/taken from fedora, some are hand picked; packaging is in debian's central java repository
<doko> but the integrated help doesn't work :-/
<overholt> as an action item, can everyone update the wiki page scsibear mentioned above to have their packaging SCM and current status?
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<overholt> hi vil
<vil> hi all
<overholt> vil: we've already introduced ourselves so why don't you do the same? just briefly.
<vil> I saw the meeting in the list, so I would like to join you
<nichoj_work> fyi, the patches Gentoo is using is tarred up at http://gentoo.osuosl.org/distfiles/eclipse-sdk-3.2.1-r1-patches.tar.bz2
<vil> i do some eclipse packaging for ubuntu, most of the time helping doko from ubuntu / debian
<overholt> cool. glad you could make it. I don't think anyone is here from SUSE so I guess we'll have to skip them.
<overholt> so is everyone clear on the project's goals? they're kinda slushy but in general we envisioned two main goals:
<overholt> 1. packaging-related tools and such
<man-di2> overholt, Daniel Bornkessel from SuSE seems to be very busy lately
<overholt> 2. tools specific to Linux developers and users
<overholt> man-di2: oh?
<man-di2> I havent heard from him since EclipseSummit Europe and we normally speak regularly
<scsibear> nichoj_work: i like the gentoo splash screen :)
<benny`work> overholt, that's it...but all documents (like proposal and wiki) mostly refering to point 1)...but i think to integrate eclipse better into the linux distros, we really need to care about user-related tools
<overholt> 1. I think we're all pretty clear on. ideally we'd all have few if any patches but in reality we may share some so it'd be cool to share them somewhere centralized
<overholt> benny`work: "user"? like, IDE user?
<benny`work> hehe yes :)
<man-di2> overholt, I have another topic but lets do these topics first
<overholt> 1. also encompasses tools to make packaging easier
<overholt> for example, klee is almost finished with a tool to generated language packs in a more friendly format
<overholt> ie. split by language as opposed to split by feature
<overholt> like OpenOffice.org, etc.
<overholt> things like that
<overholt> 2. is where most of the development will happen
<overholt> older things like our RPM plugin and our OProfile plugin
<overholt> and new things, too
<overholt> I'd like to see the ChangeLog editor go there
<overholt> and hopefully our autotools work
<overholt> but there's a *tonne* of stuff we could do in the long run
<doko> well, the OOo packaging is a bit overkill? but I agree that some common kind of split between binary packages would be nice to share
<overholt> some huge ideas: a glade designer, some valgrind stuff, etc.
<nichoj_work> looks I have to bow out... work beckons
<overholt> doko: I just mean eclipse-nls-fr vs. eclipse-nls-jdt
<overholt> see ya, nichoj_work!
<overholt> thanks for coming
<man-di2> overholt, I think most of the stuff you mention can be shared with the DSDP project
<benny`work> see you
<overholt> man-di2: really? I hadn't thought of that, but I guess ...
<man-di2> overholt, they have similar if not the same needs
<nichoj_work> I'll be back in an hour if the meeting is still going on...
<AhtiK> nichoj: bye!
<overholt> man-di2: embedded stuff always struck me as having different needs, but I'll take a look
<man-di2> overholt, they need automake support too, for example
<overholt> man-di2: well, at this point there's nothing stopping them from just bundling our stuff
<man-di2> overholt, they do a lot of C/C++
<ifoox> just for clarification, what is DSDP?
<overholt> man-di2: personally I want to see stuff driven down into the CDT where possible
<man-di2> overholt, I just wanna avoid coding the same solutions in different parts of eclipse
<rcjsuen> ifoox: www.eclipse.org/dsdp
<overholt> man-di2: we should speak with them, then
<overholt> man-di2: thanks for bringing it up
<overholt> so this meeting was originally started because rcjsuen was wondering where he could help
<overholt> outside of packaging-related tasks, I can give ideas related to the work I'm doing but I'd like to hear the opinions of others
<overholt> .... I guess we can do man-di2's other thing now if no one has any immediate ideas
<benny`work> one thing i'm really wondering about: why isn't there any project which has build something like a shell script editor...as an extension, gentoo devs could implement a special version of that as ebuild editor
<overholt> benny`work: I've seen a shell editor out there
<benny`work> one.... ;)
<overholt> benny`work: somewhere on sf.net
<rcjsuen> benny`work: For ebuild editor, talk to Chris, I'm pretty sure he was poking at one once eons ago as a "spur of the moment" kind of thing.
<benny`work> i know...i talked to him about that but it seems i has gave up on it...
<overholt> man-di2: what was the other thing you had on your list?
<benny`work> just want him to join - but he's offline
<man-di2> overholt, its about commiters in the projext, in Eclipse world commiters have voting rights, currently the project has 3 commiters, all from RH. I would like to discuss if we should get more commiters from other projects even if they dont commit any source code. Currently RH could overrule everyone. I dont expect this to happen but voting rights should be more widespread
<overholt> man-di2: I agree
<rcjsuen> Are they all from RH? I thought the third was a Novell employee.
<man-di2> this is no offence against RH, I like what you do
<overholt> man-di2: I'd love to see more committers, but the "not actually committing things" is a sticking point I think
<rcjsuen> Which brings up that "not enough votes" thing that Bjorn just sent us.
<overholt> man-di2: no offence taken :)
<overholt> rcjsuen: I emailed Keith about it. He's mostly an absentee committer but he did write the OProfile plugin so he was given initial rights.
<overholt> I hope that will be taken care of
<overholt> Matt Ryan has actually moved on to other things
<overholt> (he's the Novell guy)
<overholt> Daniel is our SUSE/Novell contact
<man-di2> even Daniel lost contact to Matt Ryan he said
<man-di2> overholt, do you know what is needed for Eclipse to make one a commiter?
<overholt> I called Matt one day
<overholt> man-di2: votes, really. I guess we can increase the # of committers through packaging-related stuff
<overholt> man-di2: how does that sound?
<man-di2> overholt, afeik only existing commiter need to do a vote, the rest is administration
<overholt> man-di2: yes, you're correct
<rcjsuen> well, paperwork is needed
<rcjsuen> man-di2: http://www.eclipse.org/legal/newcommitter.php
<man-di2> rcjsuen, thats administration
<overholt> I believe Benny is going through this now
<benny`work> yay :)
<overholt> what do people think about having at least one person per distro with commit rights on the packaging stuf?
<man-di2> overholt, can we just add more people to this process? (if the existing commiters agree ;-))
<overholt> I'm cool with that
<rcjsuen> man-di2: Oh, I was reading administration as stuff we don't do. Well, the committer-to-be has to fill out forms, is what I meant.
<man-di2> overholt, sounds not too bad
<overholt> I'd like to see someone from Debian, Gentoo, and Ubuntu
<benny`work> ok, looked again at the shell editor at sf (http://sourceforge.net/projects/shelled/). it seems that the project is dead for over 12 monthes now....and last time i tested it, it didn't work
<scsibear> overholt: sounds good to me.
<man-di2> rcjsuen, filling out forms is what I call administration
<overholt> benny`work: it could be a fun project :)
<man-di2> benny`work, there was a similar alive project, I dont remember the name ... I can look later
<overholt> okay, I'll send an email to the list about starting the committer process for the others
<man-di2> overholt, thx
- rcjsuen has to go to class.
<rcjsuen> Catch you guys later.
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<overholt> I think we're basically done, right?
<man-di2> overholt, anyone ideas to overholt's question?
<overholt> man-di2: suggestions for places to help, you mean?
<man-di2> overholt, yes
<overholt> there's lots of stuff that I could dole out for the autotools stuff but it's not hosted on eclipse.org yet.
<overholt> it's still on sourceware.org
<man-di2> overholt, so one todo is to move stuff over
<overholt> yup. I believe klee is going to submit the changelog stuff next week. klee, is that right?
<man-di2> overholt, is there a makefile editor? e.g. need for spec files
<overholt> ifoox and I want to submit our specfile editor as well but that doens't interest any of you :)
<overholt> man-di2: yes, CDT has a makefile editor
<overholt> man-di2: the automake editor is an extension of it
<man-di2> overholt, would it make sense to extend it?
<man-di2> e.g. debian das rules files (these files are based on makefiles)
<overholt> man-di2: you mean for specfiles? no, that wouldn't make sense.
<overholt> oh, perhaps for debian, yes
<overholt> I hadn't thought of that. I must admit I'm not too familiar with that
<man-di2> I dont did rpms since 10 years or so. I dont rememeber
<overholt> I'd really like to see org.eclipse.linuxtools.rpm become an extension of org.eclipse.linuxtools.packaging (or something)
<man-di2> I thougth specfiles are based on makefiles
<overholt> no, they're just shell
<overholt> so we have (general packaging stufF) -> RPM
<klee> overholt: yup
<overholt> so we have (general packaging stufF) -> DEB
<overholt> gah, bad formatting
<overholt> but you know what I mean
<overholt> and -> ebuild (if that makes sense)
<man-di2> GENTOO: Would it make sense for you to have eclipse plugins for packaging too?
<overholt> klee: great
<nichoj_work> man-di2, certainly
<benny`work> man-di2, i think an ebuild editor based on a shell editor would be the best help for that task (in my eyes)
<overholt> ifoox and I have some plans to work on the RPM stuff once it's moved from cdt-contrib
<overholt> refactoring will be easy in SVN
<doko> one more question (maybe later) about packaging: how to handle plugins/extensions packaged by a distributor and installed with the eclipse updater?
<nichoj_work> it'd be entirely a shell editor, with any other QA or extra syntax hilighting
<overholt> doko: we do packages as much as possible
<nichoj_work> maybe it'd be useful to have a way to use update manager to generate packages?
<overholt> doko: are you guys carrying the "install into ~" patch?
<nichoj_work> until a point when they can be packaged properly
<overholt> nichoj_work: I don't know if that's possible. that's sort of where I'd like to see the packaging tools go
<overholt> something that makes thigns *so* easy to package that our jobs there are not very difficult
<doko> overholt: I have to look ... but you can differentiate between things installed as a package and by download?
<overholt> doko: differentiate how?
<overholt> doko: and why?
<overholt> doko: I guess install location is how to differentiate
<nichoj_work> the reason probably is to rectify when you use update manager, then try to install a package for the same
<overholt> scsibear is going to try to ensure the update-site-in-homedir patch is committed upstream. there was movement of update manager internally at IBM so it got lost in the shuffle
<doko> if I get a bug report, I would like to know if it's an error in the package, or in a component installed by the user from the web
<man-di2> doko, I think we that but it makes different problems
<overholt> nichoj_work: oh, that's a difficult problem
<man-di2> overholt, doko: e.g. we loose all plugins on eclipse updates: 3.2.0 -> 3.2.1
<overholt> doko: interesting. I guess we just usually know where it's coming from
<overholt> man-di2: yeah
<overholt> man-di2: not much can be done there
<overholt> we can do something in the launcher, perhaps
<man-di2> overholt, the plugins should be stored in a location wihtout hardcoded version number of another plugin
<nichoj_work> on Gentoo, since we don't have any plugin packages, we're telling users to use update manager... but someday we'll have packages, and so we'll have to figure out how to bring them back on board
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<overholt> man-di2: comment on the bug with that
<overholt> nichoj_work: yeah, that's tough
<overholt> nichoj_work: something to think about
<man-di2> overholt, which bug ist that, do you know?
<overholt> man-di2: one sec
<man-di2> overholt, thx, I will comment to it later
<overholt> scsibear does a good job of keeping a bug # or at least some sort of reason in the Fedora eclipse.spec where we have patches
<man-di2> overholt, there was the idea to share all patches used by different distros in one cvs/svn repo. is that still on the roadplan?
<overholt> man-di2: sure. that's only for patches we can't get upstream, though. although a temporary place to hold them isn't bad
<nichoj_work> would also be useful to have a tarball of the patches
<overholt> man-di2: can all distros actually *ust* the patches without changes?
<man-di2> overholt, I would vote to put these itno eclispe SVN
<man-di2> overholt, if they all have the same root I guess yes
<overholt> as long as we keep pushing to get things upstream, I'm okay with a temporary holding place
<nichoj_work> gentoo at least uses the patches as they are
<overholt> nichoj_work: good
<man-di2> I know in Fedory they have different roots
<doko> overholt: we could use the OOo patch system even for distro specific patches
<overholt> that can be fixed
<overholt> doko: what's the OOo patch system?
<nichoj_work> if there are any distro specific locations, then those should probably be applied after the core patchset, yes?
<overholt> nichoj_work: I assume you mean distro-specific patches? if so, yes
<man-di2> nichoj_work, that should be possible
<overholt> I'm thinking mozilla vs. firefox vs. xulrunner
<overholt> as an example
<doko> overholt: a patch/series file which lists patches by section, where you can choose one toplevel (distro) for the set of patches
<man-di2> yeah, thats a bad example
<overholt> doko: interesting. I've never heard of this. URL?
<man-di2> overholt, I dont meant "bad" but "evil"
<overholt> man-di2: I figured that :)
<overholt> nichoj_work: are there any major bugs with the Gentoo "packages"?
<overholt> doko: you said you have the help system issue. anything else major?
<overholt> I'd like to coordinate our bug fixing effots
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<doko> the latter is the "series" file
<overholt> doko: I'll investigate that
<overholt> nichoj_work, doko, man-di: can you send email to the list with any bugs you have?
<overholt> I'd like to get all the distros on an equal footing
<overholt> so I guess everyone's most interested in the packaging stuff for now
<overholt> any development plans and tasks, etc. should be kept up to date on the wiki and then people like rcjsuen can pick and choose as they have time
<nichoj_work> overholt, there may be a few. I'll whip up a saved bugzilla query and send it around
<doko> and then the move to a free 1.5 runtime (maybe that's why tromey is listening ;)
<overholt> nichoj_work: great
<man-di> doko, can you please do this for Debian/Ubuntu as you have a better overview currently
<overholt> doko: tromey's listening 'cause I asked him to :)
<overholt> doko: Fedora's moving to 1.5 really soon
<man-di> is it already deviced to need 1.5 for Eclipse 3.3?
<overholt> my todos: I'll talk to DSDP and get the ball rolling on the distro committers
<overholt> man-di: I believe so
<scsibear> i don't think so
<overholt> man-di: well, for parts of it, that is
<tromey> yes, F7 will have a 1.5 compiler and runtime
<man-di> I know the JDT people wanted this for 3.2 already
<scsibear> some jdt plugins use 1.5 but i was able use my 3.3M4 packages with 1.4
<doko> I can to this, maybe together with vil; how should we handle bugs which are distribution specific (not reproducible by upstream)? file them anyway and tag them?
<nichoj_work> so will 3.3 not need both 1.4 and 1.5 to build?
<man-di> scsibear, nice to know
<nichoj_work> I get a good number of people complaining about that
<scsibear> nichoj_work: no, i just disabled the 1.5 specific plugins in the build
<overholt> doko: you mean tag in bugs.eclipes.org? I'd like that
<overholt> Fedora 7 won't have 3.3, though, due to dates
<nichoj_work> scsibear, I more meant that I'd rather not need 1.4
<overholt> that'd be something nice to have on the wiki as well: distro versions and dates and what Eclipse versions are included
<scsibear> nichoj_work: oh ok, i think you can build with only 1.5
<overholt> it'd also be nice to keep a list of patches peopl eneed
<doko> overholt: yes, just so that you can share these reports
<overholt> doko: yup
<overholt> doko: can you coordinate that with the other distro people?
<doko> overholt: about the tagging? yes
<overholt> nichoj_work: can you start a wiki page with the patches and links to bugs?
<overholt> doko: great, thanks
<overholt> then we can bug benny`work to get all of this linked from the main page :)
<overholt> benny`work: how's the committer process going? once we get Keith to vote are we good to go?
<overholt> anyone else have anything they want to discuss?
<benny`work> yeah, submitted the questionairy and will send my papers tomorrow
<nichoj_work> scsibear, last time I checked, there were some things that failed against 1.5
<nichoj_work> overholt, sure
<overholt> nichoj_work: great, thanks!
<overholt> benny`work: cool
<doko> hmm, so I assume if somebody wants to checkin, he has to become comitter?
<man-di> overholt, thats it from my side
<overholt> doko: yeah
<overholt> man-di: cool
<overholt> doko: I'll start on the committer stuff today
<overholt> doko: you can edit the wiki and bug stuff immediately, though
<pombreda> overholt: re, sry I was afk.
<overholt> pombreda: that's okay.
<overholt> benny`work: can you send the log out?
<man-di> overholt, for wiki you only need a bugzilla account, right?
<overholt> man-di: yup
<overholt> thanks for coming, everyone!
<man-di> nice to meet you all
<overholt> it was great to have everyone together
<benny`work> overholt, I'll upload it some minutes after we are finished :)
<overholt> talk to you on the mailing list :)
<overholt> benny`work: thanks
<benny`work> thanks for the informations
- overholt adjourns the meeting